New STi in Reno
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Here's my personal take on the various tuning software options ...
...
Now we get to EcuFlash and RomRaider/Enginuity. This software is truly free and available for download by anyone brave enough to play with it. It was developed by DIY type of people who are passionate about engine management and software in general. This software has evolved greatly from its meager beginnings and is really starting to catch up to other software like Ecutek and EcuEdit in terms of functionality. Again, there is no real support for this software outside of the various online communities. That being said, there is a wealth of information out there and the community is fairly large and active enough to allow most tuners to figure things out for themselves. The disadvantages are again, no real support structure and no protection for the tuner's work. It also takes a good deal more time to set things up and get everything working properly to allow the tuner to be efficient with his time.
Different communities have adopted different options as a standard. The Subaru community has had commercial tuning support for a very long time and has gotten used to it. The tuners are comfortable with the tools and the level of support is awesome. From this perspective its very difficult for a tuner to justify offering services with any other tools that may be more difficult to use and take more time to get comfortable with. Other communities, like the Evo community for example, adopted the cheaper, open source tools very early on before other options were easily available. Evo tuners have learned to use these tools efficiently and continue to do so with great success. Its all a matter of perspective in the end.
I personally enjoy playing around with the various options available and decide what's worth using and what isn't. I used to use Ecutek before anything else was available. Then Cobb came out with ProTuner and offered some key advantages that made using Ecutek somewhat pointless, so I ended up switching most of my tuning to ProTuner. As the open source and other tuning software has been evolving, I've been playing around with it as well. Until recently, most of this software was not at a point where I would feel comfortable using it professionally. More recently, however, these options have been making great advances and I've even started offering OpenEcu tuning services for Evo applications. The more experience I gain using these options with Evos, the closer I come to possibly offering services with them to the Subaru community. Again, with the cheaper or free options, there is much more time investment in the initial setup of the software and you have to do much more independent research and work to gain the same level of control as you would with the more commercial options, so I wouldn't blame any tuner for not jumping on the open source bandwagon.
In the end, its up to the tuner to get the car running well. He will choose the tools he's the most comfortable with to do the job right. All of these options provide a slightly different means to the same end. Some take more initial time investment, and others take more initial monetary investment. In the end we have to try to offer what is best for the customer and allows us to stay in business at the same time.
The main point is that the tune itself is what will determine how well the car runs, not necessarily the tuning tools. If you run ANY base maps (Cobb, XPT, or otherwise), you should make sure that your specific car is running safely and as expected. Base maps are a bit of a gamble no matter whose base map you run, some more than others of course. A custom tune by a good tuner will be better than any base map, no matter what reflashing tools are used.
Thanks
...
Now we get to EcuFlash and RomRaider/Enginuity. This software is truly free and available for download by anyone brave enough to play with it. It was developed by DIY type of people who are passionate about engine management and software in general. This software has evolved greatly from its meager beginnings and is really starting to catch up to other software like Ecutek and EcuEdit in terms of functionality. Again, there is no real support for this software outside of the various online communities. That being said, there is a wealth of information out there and the community is fairly large and active enough to allow most tuners to figure things out for themselves. The disadvantages are again, no real support structure and no protection for the tuner's work. It also takes a good deal more time to set things up and get everything working properly to allow the tuner to be efficient with his time.
Different communities have adopted different options as a standard. The Subaru community has had commercial tuning support for a very long time and has gotten used to it. The tuners are comfortable with the tools and the level of support is awesome. From this perspective its very difficult for a tuner to justify offering services with any other tools that may be more difficult to use and take more time to get comfortable with. Other communities, like the Evo community for example, adopted the cheaper, open source tools very early on before other options were easily available. Evo tuners have learned to use these tools efficiently and continue to do so with great success. Its all a matter of perspective in the end.
I personally enjoy playing around with the various options available and decide what's worth using and what isn't. I used to use Ecutek before anything else was available. Then Cobb came out with ProTuner and offered some key advantages that made using Ecutek somewhat pointless, so I ended up switching most of my tuning to ProTuner. As the open source and other tuning software has been evolving, I've been playing around with it as well. Until recently, most of this software was not at a point where I would feel comfortable using it professionally. More recently, however, these options have been making great advances and I've even started offering OpenEcu tuning services for Evo applications. The more experience I gain using these options with Evos, the closer I come to possibly offering services with them to the Subaru community. Again, with the cheaper or free options, there is much more time investment in the initial setup of the software and you have to do much more independent research and work to gain the same level of control as you would with the more commercial options, so I wouldn't blame any tuner for not jumping on the open source bandwagon.
In the end, its up to the tuner to get the car running well. He will choose the tools he's the most comfortable with to do the job right. All of these options provide a slightly different means to the same end. Some take more initial time investment, and others take more initial monetary investment. In the end we have to try to offer what is best for the customer and allows us to stay in business at the same time.
The main point is that the tune itself is what will determine how well the car runs, not necessarily the tuning tools. If you run ANY base maps (Cobb, XPT, or otherwise), you should make sure that your specific car is running safely and as expected. Base maps are a bit of a gamble no matter whose base map you run, some more than others of course. A custom tune by a good tuner will be better than any base map, no matter what reflashing tools are used.
Thanks
and Paul, just out of curiosity, how many cars have you had to fix that were broken due to opensource? seriously, this is an honest question not trying to start **** i promise. i know at least 15 cars in my area that are driving around with opensource/xpt maps and custom tunes, all of which are problem free for over a year at least, and both my cars are opensource tuned, all run great.
ps: funny thing i got about 6 pm's just from this thread alone from people pro opensource that are just too afraid to voice their opinion cause they'll get flamed to hell lol
A professional tuner out of concord does open source, he tunes Subarus and Evos and he did my car...nothing is blowing up...his built and tuned his and subaru did 11 seconds at the track....tuned open source...
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Ed, that is a GREAT writeup. i absolutely agree with you 100%, couldnt have put it better myself. you have my outermost respect for not being biased and telling it how it is.
and Paul, just out of curiosity, how many cars have you had to fix that were broken due to opensource? seriously, this is an honest question not trying to start **** i promise. i know at least 15 cars in my area that are driving around with opensource/xpt maps and custom tunes, all of which are problem free for over a year at least, and both my cars are opensource tuned, all run great.
ps: funny thing i got about 6 pm's just from this thread alone from people pro opensource that are just too afraid to voice their opinion cause they'll get flamed to hell lol
and Paul, just out of curiosity, how many cars have you had to fix that were broken due to opensource? seriously, this is an honest question not trying to start **** i promise. i know at least 15 cars in my area that are driving around with opensource/xpt maps and custom tunes, all of which are problem free for over a year at least, and both my cars are opensource tuned, all run great.
ps: funny thing i got about 6 pm's just from this thread alone from people pro opensource that are just too afraid to voice their opinion cause they'll get flamed to hell lol
what?!?! You not trying to start **** with those comments?.. nooo.. wha??
Wow. I ran XPT Stage 2 since half a year ago and it was great. I was given a ride inside a Cobb Stage 2 and that was great! I sometimes wish I had the Cobb instead of the XPT because of portability and it looks more cool than a laptop connected to my car. The thing is, I'm a college student and broke, and in credit card debt. I work part time to pay off my deeds. If I were to change one thing, it would be getting a Cobb Port and a tune from Paul. I never met the guy or talked to him, but I can already tell that I can trust him 100.02% with my car.
There was nothing wrong with my XPT 2 map. My car ran fine and fast. I still think it is dangerous to run without a professional overlooking your car for you. I don't mind paying someone, but money is not free when you grow up.
Cobb is a great product. “Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication” (da Vinci).
Ego13 - Hi. If you're set on something risk taking and cheap, go with XPT, I did and I'm happy. But I could be happier with Cobb, you can't go wrong with launch control
. VladiWrX is offering help for free and I think you should take it. Flash your car with XPT 2 and feel the difference. Sit in a Cobb 2 STI and feel that difference. The first choice is free of charge. But if you don't like it and feel like the cobb is safer and stronger, I think you know your answer. BTW I'm selling my tatrix cable if you want it. =P pm me.
There was nothing wrong with my XPT 2 map. My car ran fine and fast. I still think it is dangerous to run without a professional overlooking your car for you. I don't mind paying someone, but money is not free when you grow up.
Cobb is a great product. “Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication” (da Vinci).
Ego13 - Hi. If you're set on something risk taking and cheap, go with XPT, I did and I'm happy. But I could be happier with Cobb, you can't go wrong with launch control
. VladiWrX is offering help for free and I think you should take it. Flash your car with XPT 2 and feel the difference. Sit in a Cobb 2 STI and feel that difference. The first choice is free of charge. But if you don't like it and feel like the cobb is safer and stronger, I think you know your answer. BTW I'm selling my tatrix cable if you want it. =P pm me.
.
I love you guys!
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The open source tuning tools definately have their place and the community that developed around them continues to support and advance the platform. There are some very smart people in the community who have actually made some significant developments for Subaru tuning in general.
Thanks
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There is some good information between all of the crap in this thread.
For the OP, first off, welcome to the site. As you can see some people are passionate about their opinions and experiences. In the end, they are just trying to help to keep you from making a very expensive mistake.
There is nothing wrong with open source in the hands of an experienced tuner. What got muddled by long standing personal issues in this thread is that if you have never tuned a Subaru, you should pay some one to do it. Those of us that have been around this community for a long time have seen engine management systems come and go. The first thing we had was the Unichip. An utter piece of crap with extremely limited capabilities, it at least allowed tuners to modify some basic parameters. Then came the UTEC, which allowed user tuning, much like open source. People started popping motors left and right, even guys who thought they understood tuning concepts. UTEC is still around but died out as shops picked either ECUtek reflash or the first Cobb offerings.
I ran an ECUtek reflash in my STi because the AP was not out yet. It worked well, but I always wanted the map switching ability the AP later offered so I could switch for track days. ECUtek never came through on their promise to do that.
Regardless, the biggest source of blown motors is the individual owner deciding to tune it himself or use an off the shelf map that may or may not be a good match for his car. Paul and Ed will tell you, that even between identical cars you can see power and torque variations, so a custom tune is always the way to go. You pay a bit more up front, but can save yourself thousands down the road.
Again, open source is not the problem. The guy sitting behind the laptop is.
And,
* If you tune your own car and damage the engine, who is responsible for the repairs?
* If you have a buddy tune the car and the engine is damaged, who is responsible for the repairs?
* If you have a licensed, insured shop tune the car and the engine is damaged, who is responsible for the repairs?
It's your hard earned money, so make sure you spend it wisely. A couple of hundred saved now could cost you thousands down the road. Paul was trying to say that in his own crude way. He, and other local professional shops, have seen it over and over again.
Good luck with your decision. Make sure to keep the site informed as you progress through your modifications. We have an Ongoing Projects section where you can showcase all of the different projects you undertake. We have Technical sections which are great sources of information. And of course we have the local regional section which is full of... opinion.
For the OP, first off, welcome to the site. As you can see some people are passionate about their opinions and experiences. In the end, they are just trying to help to keep you from making a very expensive mistake.
There is nothing wrong with open source in the hands of an experienced tuner. What got muddled by long standing personal issues in this thread is that if you have never tuned a Subaru, you should pay some one to do it. Those of us that have been around this community for a long time have seen engine management systems come and go. The first thing we had was the Unichip. An utter piece of crap with extremely limited capabilities, it at least allowed tuners to modify some basic parameters. Then came the UTEC, which allowed user tuning, much like open source. People started popping motors left and right, even guys who thought they understood tuning concepts. UTEC is still around but died out as shops picked either ECUtek reflash or the first Cobb offerings.
I ran an ECUtek reflash in my STi because the AP was not out yet. It worked well, but I always wanted the map switching ability the AP later offered so I could switch for track days. ECUtek never came through on their promise to do that.
Regardless, the biggest source of blown motors is the individual owner deciding to tune it himself or use an off the shelf map that may or may not be a good match for his car. Paul and Ed will tell you, that even between identical cars you can see power and torque variations, so a custom tune is always the way to go. You pay a bit more up front, but can save yourself thousands down the road.
Again, open source is not the problem. The guy sitting behind the laptop is.
And,
* If you tune your own car and damage the engine, who is responsible for the repairs?
* If you have a buddy tune the car and the engine is damaged, who is responsible for the repairs?
* If you have a licensed, insured shop tune the car and the engine is damaged, who is responsible for the repairs?
It's your hard earned money, so make sure you spend it wisely. A couple of hundred saved now could cost you thousands down the road. Paul was trying to say that in his own crude way. He, and other local professional shops, have seen it over and over again.
Good luck with your decision. Make sure to keep the site informed as you progress through your modifications. We have an Ongoing Projects section where you can showcase all of the different projects you undertake. We have Technical sections which are great sources of information. And of course we have the local regional section which is full of... opinion.
Thread Starter
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Yeah, right now the car is definitely fast enough for me. I was mainly looking for that "quick fix" option and had read quite a bit about XPT OTS maps and they seemed reliable from what I read. I do understand the importance of having a professional help you (hell I'm a personal trainer so in a lot of ways there are parallels) and so I'm thinking I might just pickup a used AP when the time arrives and use that and go from there.
I wouldn't ever cheap my way with parts so I guess this would be the same, but the view I had was more the difference of Linux (open source) and Windows (AP/ProTune) only I guess the main difference is that you can actually damage your hardware in this case (kind of a huge diff).
It's good, I learn more with each (mostly) post and definitely thank you guys for all the input.
I wouldn't ever cheap my way with parts so I guess this would be the same, but the view I had was more the difference of Linux (open source) and Windows (AP/ProTune) only I guess the main difference is that you can actually damage your hardware in this case (kind of a huge diff).
It's good, I learn more with each (mostly) post and definitely thank you guys for all the input.
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Ed, that is a GREAT writeup. i absolutely agree with you 100%, couldnt have put it better myself. you have my outermost respect for not being biased and telling it how it is.
and Paul, just out of curiosity, how many cars have you had to fix that were broken due to opensource? seriously, this is an honest question not trying to start **** i promise. i know at least 15 cars in my area that are driving around with opensource/xpt maps and custom tunes, all of which are problem free for over a year at least, and both my cars are opensource tuned, all run great.
ps: funny thing i got about 6 pm's just from this thread alone from people pro opensource that are just too afraid to voice their opinion cause they'll get flamed to hell lol
and Paul, just out of curiosity, how many cars have you had to fix that were broken due to opensource? seriously, this is an honest question not trying to start **** i promise. i know at least 15 cars in my area that are driving around with opensource/xpt maps and custom tunes, all of which are problem free for over a year at least, and both my cars are opensource tuned, all run great.
ps: funny thing i got about 6 pm's just from this thread alone from people pro opensource that are just too afraid to voice their opinion cause they'll get flamed to hell lol
Are any of them willing to put their car on my dyno...for free...to see how "fine" they really are?
Yes, I said free dyno time.
Four motors since late March with two more in the wings awaiting their slot.
All used open source & remote tuning.
I agree with Ed...it's not the tool, but the monkey using it.
Maybe I'm slow to change, but I'd rather stick with a known product that offers a fairly extensive support network.
BTW, have those that pm'ed you post up, no flaming will be tolerated.
In Russia, Title Choose You.
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Who tuned those motors?
Are any of them willing to put their car on my dyno...for free...to see how "fine" they really are?
Yes, I said free dyno time.
Four motors since late March with two more in the wings awaiting their slot.
All used open source & remote tuning.
I agree with Ed...it's not the tool, but the monkey using it.
Maybe I'm slow to change, but I'd rather stick with a known product that offers a fairly extensive support network.
BTW, have those that pm'ed you post up, no flaming will be tolerated.
Are any of them willing to put their car on my dyno...for free...to see how "fine" they really are?
Yes, I said free dyno time.
Four motors since late March with two more in the wings awaiting their slot.
All used open source & remote tuning.
I agree with Ed...it's not the tool, but the monkey using it.
Maybe I'm slow to change, but I'd rather stick with a known product that offers a fairly extensive support network.
BTW, have those that pm'ed you post up, no flaming will be tolerated.
Last edited by Vladi; May 17, 2008 at 01:15 PM.