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Old 09-10-2009, 03:47 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by sigma pi
juggleing chain saws is ok

as long as you dont mess up
It isn't when you do it in traffic. What's yoar point?
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:23 PM
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you missed the whole point, the law is not implace for your safety. police and legislation do not care about your safety. it is money that is all they care about.

bottom line money. say what you want but here is why. at one time the legal limit was one thing. then it was lowered, why? simple, dui laws did cut back one nonproblem people driving drunk, the problem drinker that it was intended for, no. they will still drive no matter what. what they found was a good way to make cash. cause they started to nail people who were not real offeneders, so as they nailed them over time, there was starting to be a lul in the overall numbers. so now you have less offenders out there chancing it. so now what do you do? lower the limit, now you can more people cause people were out there being more conscienciuos of what they were doing. the lower limit allowed them to get more people. more revenue. plus in PA they give incentives to police to pull more people over. this is especially evident in smaller borrow police dept.
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Bagin,DVS
you missed the whole point, the law is not implace for your safety. police and legislation do not care about your safety. it is money that is all they care about.
When you say "you missed the point," who is the "you" in that statement? 'cause I sure didn't miss that.

Originally Posted by Original Post
There are already laws in place that cover the problems/accidents caused by inebriated drivers. In my opinion, drunk driving laws are redundant, possibly excessive, and borderline superfluous. Much like speeding tickets, they only restrain people who wouldn't do it in the first place, and act as revenue earners for municipalities.
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by saqwarrior
Running a red light and driving on the right side of the road aren't just a question of public safety, it's a question of traffic infrastructure, efficiency and not impeding the flow of traffic. Bad examples.
I disagree - its a judgment call just like driving while intoxicated, or speeding. For example, I arrive at a red light at 1am - no traffic. I drive through without waiting for it to change and a cop tickets me. Going by your definition, that constitutes a victimless crime. No one was involved, therefore no victim.

Originally Posted by saqwarrior
Speeding... that's a more appropriate example. But then again, I don't believe there should be speed limit laws in most circumstances, especially on highways.
Many of these victimless rules pertain to safety and preventive measures. For example, seat-belts are mandatory, as are crash helmets for motorcyclists (at least in CA). These rules would not be necessary if people were capable of exercising good judgment. Another great example "Must switch on lights when windshield wipers are required". You shouldn't need to tell people these things, but the statistics demonstrate that people make a lot of poor decisions.
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Lorry
Laws like these are put in place to reduce the chances of an accident happening.
They tried to ban alcohol period (which I believe would correct everything). Everyone in the world would be better off is alcohol never went into the system. Obviously, we think being 21 all of a sudden changes our brain from being illegal to legal and we're wizards.

the 21 year old law is a joke too. Sorry, but your "reducing the chances" thing can be applied to almost everything.

I RECYCLE BECAUSE IT REDUCES THE CHANCES OF GREEN HOUSE GASES THAT HOLD IN UV RAYS... omg wtf destroy the planet...

lol, most of our laws is a great $$ making tool.

I still love that "Red light camera reduces accidents" when in fact it has increased them from rear ending. Bahahaha
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Old 09-11-2009, 03:55 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by Lorry
I disagree - its a judgment call just like driving while intoxicated, or speeding. For example, I arrive at a red light at 1am - no traffic. I drive through without waiting for it to change and a cop tickets me. Going by your definition, that constitutes a victimless crime. No one was involved, therefore no victim.
Disagree all you want. This statement is accurate, and those examples are flawed because of it:

Originally Posted by saqwarrior
Running a red light and driving on the right side of the road aren't just a question of public safety, it's a question of traffic infrastructure, efficiency and not impeding the flow of traffic. Bad examples.
Originally Posted by Lorry
Many of these victimless rules pertain to safety and preventive measures. For example, seat-belts are mandatory, as are crash helmets for motorcyclists (at least in CA). These rules would not be necessary if people were capable of exercising good judgment. Another great example "Must switch on lights when windshield wipers are required". You shouldn't need to tell people these things, but the statistics demonstrate that people make a lot of poor decisions.
I don't agree with the legitimacy of any of those examples of safety laws that you listed. In my opinion none of them should be a law -- my decision of personal safety and injury avoidance is my responsibility and no one else's. And if you think government actually cares about your safety, then you're clearly breaking some kind of illegitimate law because it's obvious you're high.

Last edited by saqwarrior; 09-11-2009 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 09-11-2009, 04:03 PM
  #112  
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Some other very good points:

For people who have grown accustomed to having the government monitor, regulate and enforce every facet of their miserable lives, it can be very difficult for them to conceive of the idea of legalizing drunk driving without at the same time picturing in their heads mangled cars, dead babies, and carnage generally. They have been told year after year by the government that created and enforces these laws, that drunk driving is one of the very worst crimes a man can commit, and that, were it not for the government’s ruthless pursuit of these dangerous criminals, there would indeed be unchecked slaughter in the streets.

Any arguments to the contrary, claiming that we could reduce both the incidence and danger of drunk driving by legalizing it, appear completely absurd to these people. They dismiss these arguments out of hand because they have adopted the government’s ridiculous conception of the drunk-driving issue, which looks something like this:

A) Drunk drivers are dangerous, and can kill other drivers

B) The government has outlawed drunk driving, and punishes drunk driving ruthlessly

Ergo, C) The government’s prohibition and punishments do actually reduce the incidence and danger of drunk driving

It does not take a professor of logic, however, to see that this type of argument is fallacious. The conclusion simply does not follow from the premises. We are not entitled to conclude that the government is successfully reducing either the incidence or the danger of drunk driving, just because they have prohibited it and are mercilessly punishing violators. It could be the case that the government’s prohibitions and punishments themselves are actually exacerbating the problem rather than ameliorating it.
He continues, drawing an analogy to the War on Drugs:

The preceding point is exceedingly important, and is worth emphasizing with an analogous example from the so-called "War on Drugs." The federal government takes an analogous position with regard to drug trafficking and consumption, after all. The claim has always been that all the prohibitions and brutal punishments do reduce drug production and consumption (otherwise, what would be the point of the "war"?). Spokesmen for the drug warriors periodically appear in the news claiming that they have just busted a behemoth cocaine or marijuana smuggling ring, and that the bust will be a major blow to drug pushers and consumers. We all know what happens in the real world of drug production once the government cracks down on drugs in some way, however: the market participants adjust to the increased pressure by shifting their base of operation (e.g., from peaceful Caribbean beaches to the blood-drenched calles of Mexico), switching to more concentrated and dangerous drugs to produce and sell to avoid getting caught (e.g., switching from marijuana to cocaine and heroin), and the more vicious risk-takers among the drug producers take market share away from those who fear prison and God if they, say, cut off a police chief’s head.

Needless to say, the mere fact that the government has prohibited certain drugs, and has gone so far as to wage "war" against them, is insufficient to establish that the government is truly reducing drug consumption or production. If anything, the government’s prohibition of and "war" on drugs has itself caused drugs to become more potent, has created a drug gulag system in the United States (that is, ironically, itself rife with drugs) and a mafia state in Mexico – and yet has not reduced anyone’s ability to purchase coke, pot and meth in the slightest degree.

With regard to the drug "war," and all of its obvious failures and disasters, no one with half a brain would think of making an argument claiming that the government is actually reducing drug consumption, just because they have made them illegal and ruthlessly punish offenders. No one would offer an argument, like the one above, claiming:

A) Drug addicts are dangerous, and can kill or hurt themselves and others

B) The government has outlawed consuming or selling drugs, and punishes consumers and sellers ruthlessly

Ergo, C) The government’s prohibition and punishments do actually reduce the incidence and danger of drugs

No one would make such an argument because the conclusion obviously does not follow from the premises. Some sort of further argument or evidence is necessary to establish that the prohibition is working, or else the argument is question-begging. And, once one takes even the slightest peek at the evidence (i.e., the destruction, death and incarceration that the Drug War has delivered to this continent, and the ease with which anyone can buy virtually any drug in any city, school, or prison on this continent), the argument falls apart immediately.

The same ought to be true for what might be aptly called the "War on Drunk Driving." One ought not to simply assume that the government’s prohibitions and medieval punishments actually work to reduce drunk driving – unless there exist good arguments to that effect.
And the conclusion:

When one looks at the arguments about the efficacy of the government’s war on drunk driving, however, they all point to the opposite conclusion; namely, that the government’s prohibition and punishments are actually making things worse, rather than better. For example, the government’s prohibitions have created incentives for drunk drivers to drive much more dangerously than they otherwise would. They have resulted in a massive loss of income and freedom for hundreds of thousands – if not millions – of Americans who have been arrested, fined and imprisoned for drunk driving without ever hurting anyone. They have created an interlocking structure of incentives that actually encourage drunk driving. They have created a blatantly hypocritical standard for driving on the nation’s roads – with some dangerous drivers let off with a wag of the finger, while others are arrested, fined and incarcerated for doing exactly the same thing; namely, putting other people’s lives at risk. And they have created a police state on the nation’s roads and highways; with Israeli-like random checkpoints, a massive propaganda campaign to intimidate drivers, and mandatory removal of blood from people’s bodies.

The challenge, then, for people who believe in prohibiting drunk driving is to show that these laws do actually reduce drunk driving. Like proponents of drug prohibition, they must be able to show that all of the obvious suffering these laws inflict, billions of lost dollars spent in waging the "war," loss of individual liberties, and counterproductive incentives the laws create have actually reduced drunk driving.

For decades we have been waiting for the drug prohibitionists to give us some similar proof that their favored war has given us some tangible benefits besides millions of men in prison, ever-more potent and dangerous drugs, and a police state run amok. They have failed miserably. So, too, will the proponents of drunk-driving prohibition when we look back on decades of fighting a "war" against our own people, when they have never even hurt any other people.

September 2, 2009

Mark R. Crovelli [send him mail] writes from Denver, Colorado.
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Old 09-11-2009, 05:04 PM
  #113  
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^^^

What are we supposed to conclude from that? It's ok to impair your ability to drive on the chance that you wont break any traffic laws. If you do happen to violate a traffic law, or worse, you should be awarded the same penalty as anyone else, even though you took it upon yourself to impair your ability to drive safely and attentively.

I don't buy into the "war on drunk driving" or whatever title it's given. However, I do understand that it's impractical to just trust anyone that downed a 6 pack (or smoked rock, snorted ?, dropped acid, etc.) and their ability to make it home safe.

I don't feel that there is any appeal to emotion or fear. It's no secret that (x) amount of alcohol will impede anyone's ability to do things as simple as walk a straight line, yet alone drive a car. Why should I encourage anyone to lessen their ability to drive when accidents are so commonplace already?

To quote Paul, stupid should hurt.

Last edited by Superglue WRX; 09-11-2009 at 05:06 PM.
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Old 09-14-2009, 10:35 AM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by saqwarrior
because it's obvious you're high.
Why are you so confrontational all the time?

You asked for peoples' thoughts and then berate them when they post opinions that don't agree with yours. I'm interested in discussion, not personal attacks.
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Old 09-14-2009, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Lorry
Why are you so confrontational all the time?

You asked for peoples' thoughts and then berate them when they post opinions that don't agree with yours. I'm interested in discussion, not personal attacks.
hahaha

Originally Posted by saqwarrior
I don't agree with the legitimacy of any of those examples of safety laws that you listed. In my opinion none of them should be a law -- my decision of personal safety and injury avoidance is my responsibility and no one else's. And if you think government actually cares about your safety, then you're clearly breaking some kind of illegitimate law because it's obvious you're high.
You actually think that was confrontational? Is this your first time on an internet forum?

Taken in the context of the rest of the paragraph referring to the legitimacy of laws, I would think the tongue-in-cheek nature of the bolded statement should have been obvious. Looks like I'm guilty of what I chided Subyusmcguy for -- next time I'll put a smiley face in.
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Old 09-15-2009, 03:17 PM
  #116  
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Yeah, re-reading it I can see that. I think I was probably in an irascible mood - my bad.

Anyways, getting back to the chase, I agree with the logic of what you are saying. Also, I'm under no false pretenses about how much the government cares for safety. I think most of these 'safety' laws are basically 'cover your ***' laws - similar to the TSA with airport security. The govt. puts them in place to show that it is taking action.

Whereas DUI and speeding are both victimless, I think the biggest difference is that, when someone is speeding, they are still using their judgment to determine what is safe. When someone is DUI, their judgment is impaired. I don't care about them hurting themselves - that's their choice. However, they are also putting everyone else at much greater risk of an accident.
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