good time to get a leftover 06 ?
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Originally Posted by 06WRX4ME
Why mod your engine if you are going to run the same lines because your suspension isnt modded. Why is the fastest STi on a track near stock HP, but is modded like crazy in the body and suspension?
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Originally Posted by 06WRX4ME
I do agree that skill is needed, but your telling me that if i take an FP Green setup and put it on my 06 WRX and leave everything else stock I will be able to control the power. Your dead wrong. I will need new tires, handling, at the minimum.
Handling is independent of power, except in the way that power exacts weight transfer (affecting handling dynamics). Power can be controlled by your right foot.
Your maximum g's through a corner are still essentially the same whether you have 110hp or 400hp in any given car, given the same suspension geometry, tires, weight, etc.
That said, Stock S2k handles better than a stock WRX. Why? Suspension geometry, spring rates, better tires (RE040's vs. RE92's... um... yeah... no comment). It would still handle better than a stock WRX if it had 230hp and whatever LB-FT the WRX has. It would just be able to accelerate quicker.
WRX, WRX STi, Evo, etc. are all AWD cars with forgiving handling characteristics. S2k is more difficult to drive (especially the AP1 with faster steering ratio and more oversteer tendencies). However, even though the STi has more power, it is still murdered in A-Stock autocross as a rule, an activity that focuses more on handling than drag racing. This is also why a Lotus Elise with 190hp can beat a Z06 with 500+ hp at an autox, unless of course there are a lot of straights.
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Originally Posted by resident smurf
You'll be able to "handle the power" until you need to turn or stop.
Handling is independent of power, except in the way that power exacts weight transfer (affecting handling dynamics). Power can be controlled by your right foot.
This is my point and thank you for showing that the point I was discussing is correct.
I understand that driver skill has a ton to do with how a car handles. All I was saying is that if you add more power, then you need to compensate for that power with better handling to handle the power better.
Your maximum g's through a corner are still essentially the same whether you have 110hp or 400hp in any given car, given the same suspension geometry, tires, weight, etc.
This is very true, but adding tires and suspension mods can help you sustain higher g's.
That said, Stock S2k handles better than a stock WRX. Why? Suspension geometry, spring rates, better tires (RE040's vs. RE92's... um... yeah... no comment). It would still handle better than a stock WRX if it had 230hp and whatever LB-FT the WRX has. It would just be able to accelerate quicker.
I agree because its a smaller, lighter car that is set up more for a tighter course.
WRX, WRX STi, Evo, etc. are all AWD cars with forgiving handling characteristics. S2k is more difficult to drive (especially the AP1 with faster steering ratio and more oversteer tendencies). However, even though the STi has more power, it is still murdered in A-Stock autocross as a rule, an activity that focuses more on handling than drag racing. This is also why a Lotus Elise with 190hp can beat a Z06 with 500+ hp at an autox, unless of course there are a lot of straights.
which means that more power effects your handling on a tight windy autox course.
Handling is independent of power, except in the way that power exacts weight transfer (affecting handling dynamics). Power can be controlled by your right foot.
This is my point and thank you for showing that the point I was discussing is correct.
I understand that driver skill has a ton to do with how a car handles. All I was saying is that if you add more power, then you need to compensate for that power with better handling to handle the power better.
Your maximum g's through a corner are still essentially the same whether you have 110hp or 400hp in any given car, given the same suspension geometry, tires, weight, etc.
This is very true, but adding tires and suspension mods can help you sustain higher g's.
That said, Stock S2k handles better than a stock WRX. Why? Suspension geometry, spring rates, better tires (RE040's vs. RE92's... um... yeah... no comment). It would still handle better than a stock WRX if it had 230hp and whatever LB-FT the WRX has. It would just be able to accelerate quicker.
I agree because its a smaller, lighter car that is set up more for a tighter course.
WRX, WRX STi, Evo, etc. are all AWD cars with forgiving handling characteristics. S2k is more difficult to drive (especially the AP1 with faster steering ratio and more oversteer tendencies). However, even though the STi has more power, it is still murdered in A-Stock autocross as a rule, an activity that focuses more on handling than drag racing. This is also why a Lotus Elise with 190hp can beat a Z06 with 500+ hp at an autox, unless of course there are a lot of straights.
which means that more power effects your handling on a tight windy autox course.
Last edited by 06WRX4ME; Sep 8, 2006 at 07:29 AM.
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Basically IF you wish to utilize your maximum power and ability to control the car then INDIRECTLY power will affect your handling. At a certain point there is a trade off, where you will (whether you are a noob driver, or the best out there) need to address your car's handling issues.
Keeping the power planted to the tarmac.
Keeping the power planted to the tarmac.
Originally Posted by 06WRX4ME
fixed!!!
its like you are choosing to ignore the most important parts of what is being said. there is obviously no convincing you. even in the post you just quoted, he is saying exactly what we have been trying to get through to you:
Originally Posted by resident smurf
Handling is independent of power, except in the way that power exacts weight transfer (affecting handling dynamics). Power can be controlled by your right foot.
Your maximum g's through a corner are still essentially the same whether you have 110hp or 400hp in any given car, given the same suspension geometry, tires, weight, etc.
That said, Stock S2k handles better than a stock WRX. Why? Suspension geometry, spring rates, better tires (RE040's vs. RE92's... um... yeah... no comment). It would still handle better than a stock WRX if it had 230hp and whatever LB-FT the WRX has. It would just be able to accelerate quicker.
Your maximum g's through a corner are still essentially the same whether you have 110hp or 400hp in any given car, given the same suspension geometry, tires, weight, etc.
That said, Stock S2k handles better than a stock WRX. Why? Suspension geometry, spring rates, better tires (RE040's vs. RE92's... um... yeah... no comment). It would still handle better than a stock WRX if it had 230hp and whatever LB-FT the WRX has. It would just be able to accelerate quicker.
- power controlled by right foot
- g's thru corner are the same @ 110hp or 400hp
- s2k > wrx
we are not trying to say "do not upgrade your suspension." if you want a car to handle better, by all means, get suspension. the point of this is that power is independent of suspension. they are not directly correlated. thats it. more power will not affect your handling, you stepping on the gas and going faster than you should affects handling, whether you have more power or less power.
Originally Posted by RedStage
Basically IF you wish to utilize your maximum power and ability to control the car then INDIRECTLY power will affect your handling. At a certain point there is a trade off, where you will (whether you are a noob driver, or the best out there) need to address your car's handling issues.
Keeping the power planted to the tarmac.
Keeping the power planted to the tarmac.
The way you say it is causing this argument to continue IMHO. You might as well say power affects braking because you "should" upgrade your brakes when you add power. Power does not affect braking, but given what you are continuing to repeat post after post, I could see how you would think that.
To put it simply: power does not affect handling, but you should balance out the mods on your car so that power, handling and braking are all capable of handling each other.
Can we all get along now?
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Originally Posted by Yin
mis-quoting... nice...
its like you are choosing to ignore the most important parts of what is being said. there is obviously no convincing you. even in the post you just quoted, he is saying exactly what we have been trying to get through to you:
- handling independent of power
- power controlled by right foot
- g's thru corner are the same @ 110hp or 400hp
- s2k > wrx
we are not trying to say "do not upgrade your suspension." if you want a car to handle better, by all means, get suspension. the point of this is that power is independent of suspension. they are not directly correlated. thats it. more power will not affect your handling, you stepping on the gas and going faster than you should affects handling, whether you have more power or less power.
its like you are choosing to ignore the most important parts of what is being said. there is obviously no convincing you. even in the post you just quoted, he is saying exactly what we have been trying to get through to you:
- handling independent of power
- power controlled by right foot
- g's thru corner are the same @ 110hp or 400hp
- s2k > wrx
we are not trying to say "do not upgrade your suspension." if you want a car to handle better, by all means, get suspension. the point of this is that power is independent of suspension. they are not directly correlated. thats it. more power will not affect your handling, you stepping on the gas and going faster than you should affects handling, whether you have more power or less power.
Originally Posted by 06WRX4ME
sorry that I never did mention tires, the things that touch the ground.
I understand where you guys are coming from, but its confusing me. Why mod your engine if you are going to run the same lines because your suspension isnt modded. Why is the fastest STi on a track near stock HP, but is modded like crazy in the body and suspension?
I understand where you guys are coming from, but its confusing me. Why mod your engine if you are going to run the same lines because your suspension isnt modded. Why is the fastest STi on a track near stock HP, but is modded like crazy in the body and suspension?
Because I've already mentioned why, most stock cars engines far outpace the stock suspension. Again, power is independent of handling. THEY ARE NOT RELATED
Originally Posted by 06WRX4ME
fixed!!!
You are damn hard headed. The POWER of the z06 has nothing to do with why an elise will lap it. The POWER of the sti has nothing to do with why the s2k beats it in A-stock
Its the HANDLING of the elise that helps it on the auto-x course. Its much much lighter and and hanldes like a go cart. If the elise had 500hp like the z06 it would just whip it even more
Its the HANDLING of the s2k that gives it an edge in A-stock, NOT THE POWER
What limits both the STi and Z06 on most auto-x courses is that they are big and heavy, NOT BECAUSE THEY HAVE A LOT OF POWER. EVEN IF THEY HAD 100 -200less HP EACH THEY WOULD STILL GET MOPPED UP BY A LIGHTER BETTER HANDLING CAR ON AN AUTO_X COURSE.
**** a stock miata will handle the course in nearly the same time. Auto-x is the perfect example of why power has nothing to do with handling. Its a small, tight, low speed course, handling and driving are the 2 most important aspects to go fast, NOT POWER. The suspension is psuhed to its limit long before the engine is
Now if you put stock sti on a full open track vs a miata things will change, then you will start to see a differences with power
Jesus ***** I swear this is like throwing rocks at a wall
Originally Posted by 06WRX4ME
power and handling are two different items, or whatever you want to call them, yes. Having more power will change the handling of the car. That is all that I am saying. If you add more power you will have to handle the car differently to get the maximum time. true or false???????
FALSE!!
The car will handle EXACTLY the same with 100hp or 500hp.
You will have to drive the car exactly the same (well less right foot action) to get the same times
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I think we are trying to hit two different points. Both are right.
your point - a lighter car will handle better than a heavier car regardless of power because its set up better for a tighter autoX track.
to this I agree.
my point - if you take a car and mod it and make more power, you will need to compensate that power with better handling. There is a point to where driving skill is not going to be able to handle the power alone and you will need to increase your handling to sustain the power. AutoX is probably not a good example because, like you say, its a slow windy course and you can not open up your full power on it. If you take a track like Laguna Seca or Nurburring (however you spell it) where you can use the power, that is where you will need the better handling to compensate for the power you have.
your point - a lighter car will handle better than a heavier car regardless of power because its set up better for a tighter autoX track.
to this I agree.
my point - if you take a car and mod it and make more power, you will need to compensate that power with better handling. There is a point to where driving skill is not going to be able to handle the power alone and you will need to increase your handling to sustain the power. AutoX is probably not a good example because, like you say, its a slow windy course and you can not open up your full power on it. If you take a track like Laguna Seca or Nurburring (however you spell it) where you can use the power, that is where you will need the better handling to compensate for the power you have.
Originally Posted by 06WRX4ME
my point - if you take a car and mod it and make more power, you will need to compensate that power with better handling. There is a point to where driving skill is not going to be able to handle the power alone and you will need to increase your handling to sustain the power.
If you upgrade the engine, your car will still handle the same, period. You just have to be a better driver and not use all of that power. You can turn the same times on the track if you know how to drive.
If you want to full optimize the car ,then yes your suspension has to match your engine, but like I said before, most cars these days stock motors already outpace the stock brakes/tires/suspension
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Originally Posted by ucbsti
FALSE!!
The car will handle EXACTLY the same with 100hp or 500hp.
You will have to drive the car exactly the same (well less right foot action) to get the same times
The car will handle EXACTLY the same with 100hp or 500hp.
You will have to drive the car exactly the same (well less right foot action) to get the same times
But to get the 500hp car to do the same times....you won't be able to utilize the maximum potential of the 500hp.....and by maximum I mean dependent on the car, power, course being ran on, etc.
You're right, they will handle the same IF driven the same, but to use as much of the car's potential as you (the driver) can squeeze out of it, you will adjust the suspension and driving techniques to suit the car's setup.
That is true. BUt that's not the point you both were originally arguing. You were both saying that with power you HAVE to upgrade your suspension. You dont HAVE to, you may only choose to to fully optimize it
However, I'll reiterate, most stock cars suspesions are already far-outpaced by their engines. There is no need to upgrade most cars engines these days in order to be fast around a track
However, I'll reiterate, most stock cars suspesions are already far-outpaced by their engines. There is no need to upgrade most cars engines these days in order to be fast around a track
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Originally Posted by ucbsti
Still no! I'm sorry. If you want your car to handle better, period, you need to upgrade the suspension, thats still independent of power
If you upgrade the engine, your car will still handle the same, period. You just have to be a better driver and not use all of that power. You can turn the same times on the track if you know how to drive.
If you want to full optimize the car ,then yes your suspension has to match your engine, but like I said before, most cars these days stock motors already outpace the stock brakes/tires/suspension
If you upgrade the engine, your car will still handle the same, period. You just have to be a better driver and not use all of that power. You can turn the same times on the track if you know how to drive.
If you want to full optimize the car ,then yes your suspension has to match your engine, but like I said before, most cars these days stock motors already outpace the stock brakes/tires/suspension
so to fully use the power of your car you will need to upgrade the suspension, handling.
So therefore your point of stock for stock, light vs. heavy, you are correct.
My point of adding more power will change the handling is validated when you say, you just have to be a better driver and NOT USE ALL OF THAT POWER.
Once again I say, why put the upgrades into the engine if you can not utilize them. That makes no sense to me.
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Originally Posted by ucbsti
That is true. BUt that's not the point you both were originally arguing. You were both saying that with power you HAVE to upgrade your suspension. You dont HAVE to, you may only choose to to fully optimize it
However, I'll reiterate, most stock cars suspesions are already far-outpaced by their engines. There is no need to upgrade most cars engines these days in order to be fast around a track
However, I'll reiterate, most stock cars suspesions are already far-outpaced by their engines. There is no need to upgrade most cars engines these days in order to be fast around a track