Wrx Vrs S4
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Re: Audiworld??
Just some comments from a current S4 owner, but someone who also currently owns a Legacy Outback, owned a Legacy GT and has loved WRX's, Lancer EVO's and Skyline GT-R's for many years.
I frequent the AudiWorld S4 forum much more than the i-Club or the Lancer forums, as I own the car. Like any forum, it has it's share of dweebs and stupid threads, but on the whole, they are extremely experienced and knowledgeable when it comes to these cars. Many of them do their own work on the cars and have lots of experience drag racing and tracking their cars.
Simply put, AudiWorld is not mostly populated by people I would define as children, as this board and especially the Lancer Forums has shown all too often. (Clearly, I am not directing these comments at the VERY intelligent folks I have followed on this site & the Lancer site.)
Where do I begin? Some random thoughts,
First, lets talk price. The $15k difference that most folks toss around is really a misnomer. That's the dif in an ideal situation. Here was mine: I went to my Subaru dealer in November 2000 to put money down on a WRX, as they were coming in March '01. I wanted a loaded 5 speed and was willing to pay MSRP. The sales manager tells me that they need $1k down PLUS the full $3k dealer markup. I told him to drop the $3k premium and he has a sale - hold onto it, and I'm off to Audi. He let me walk.
Why is $15k a misnomer? Because, markups aside, my local Subaru dealers are still playing games with WRX's and still will not sell for less than full MSRP, especially if you start loading it with special options. (I shudder to think how they'll treat me when I walk in asking about the STi!)
So if you price out a new WRX today (I used their site) which is loaded (for a fair comparison to my S4, which is loaded) I come to $28,634 MSRP. My S4 MSRP was $42,150 and we agreed on $40k even. The difference = $11366.
Is it worth $11k more? I'm not entirely sure! My car has "cache", but not being a lawyer, doctor, executive, IT professional, etc, I don't need the cache. Then again, I don't want the "ricer" image, either. It sure is nice being treated like a million bucks at my dealer - WAY nicer then my Subie dealer (who resides in a very upscale neighborhood, btw). My Subie dealer won't wash the car, they argue about things like free loaners (despite their website promising one) and their sales staff doesn't treat a person like they should when they're a repeat customer.
My Audi is WAY quieter than our (newer) 2002 Outback. It FEELS WAY, WAY nicer (steering, brakes, controls, layout, Alcantara, Bose, everything.)
Crummy shifter? YUP! But 90% solved with a Stratmosphere short shifter.
Blown turbos? There is a small number of people who are very vocal on the internet regarding their problems. They in many cases are guys who race their cars and consider their warranty to be a free pit crew. Ask yourself - if the supposed Audi turbo problems were as bad as they're made out to be, then they would be getting AT LEAST as much attention as the current BMW M3 engine fiasco is getting nowadays.
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As has been pointed out many times, the 2 cars are different. The S4 is a hi-perf version of a entry level luxury car. The things that differntiate the base models of both cars continue on into the hi-po versions, as well. (I must say, it's funny that no one pursues comparisons of Impreza 2.0's to A4 1.8T's.)
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Let me say this, though. At this point, most of you still reading are thinking I'm an Audi shill. This simply is not true. I loved my previous car, a Mitsu Eclipse GSX, in part because it was small and somehow felt more tossable and fun. I believe that what I'm describing is the "soul" that the European mags like EVO and CAR claim is lacking in the S4. The S4 is just so well behaved - it's like the Seinfeld episode where Jerry is dating a woman he deems to "good a person" and states that the sex wouldn't be enjoyable because he respects her too much. He says there's "no depravity". It's the same with this car.
Despite my investment in my car, I am seriously pondering getting an Evolution or STi Impreza in 2004. After all, I wanted these cars for years and no matter how much I love my S4, I feel like a person who married the wrong woman. I have an STi calendar hanging over my computer, I have an STi Impreza on my wallpaper. I build plastic models and the majority are WRC Impreza's and Lancers (and Skylines).
I am very conflicted over what to do in the next couple years. I love the Lancer Evo, the Impreza WRX & STi and my Audi S4. They're all great cars. In some ways it's nice to have such great cars to choose from.
Just don't dis the S4.
I frequent the AudiWorld S4 forum much more than the i-Club or the Lancer forums, as I own the car. Like any forum, it has it's share of dweebs and stupid threads, but on the whole, they are extremely experienced and knowledgeable when it comes to these cars. Many of them do their own work on the cars and have lots of experience drag racing and tracking their cars.
Simply put, AudiWorld is not mostly populated by people I would define as children, as this board and especially the Lancer Forums has shown all too often. (Clearly, I am not directing these comments at the VERY intelligent folks I have followed on this site & the Lancer site.)
Where do I begin? Some random thoughts,
First, lets talk price. The $15k difference that most folks toss around is really a misnomer. That's the dif in an ideal situation. Here was mine: I went to my Subaru dealer in November 2000 to put money down on a WRX, as they were coming in March '01. I wanted a loaded 5 speed and was willing to pay MSRP. The sales manager tells me that they need $1k down PLUS the full $3k dealer markup. I told him to drop the $3k premium and he has a sale - hold onto it, and I'm off to Audi. He let me walk.
Why is $15k a misnomer? Because, markups aside, my local Subaru dealers are still playing games with WRX's and still will not sell for less than full MSRP, especially if you start loading it with special options. (I shudder to think how they'll treat me when I walk in asking about the STi!)
So if you price out a new WRX today (I used their site) which is loaded (for a fair comparison to my S4, which is loaded) I come to $28,634 MSRP. My S4 MSRP was $42,150 and we agreed on $40k even. The difference = $11366.
Is it worth $11k more? I'm not entirely sure! My car has "cache", but not being a lawyer, doctor, executive, IT professional, etc, I don't need the cache. Then again, I don't want the "ricer" image, either. It sure is nice being treated like a million bucks at my dealer - WAY nicer then my Subie dealer (who resides in a very upscale neighborhood, btw). My Subie dealer won't wash the car, they argue about things like free loaners (despite their website promising one) and their sales staff doesn't treat a person like they should when they're a repeat customer.
My Audi is WAY quieter than our (newer) 2002 Outback. It FEELS WAY, WAY nicer (steering, brakes, controls, layout, Alcantara, Bose, everything.)
Crummy shifter? YUP! But 90% solved with a Stratmosphere short shifter.
Blown turbos? There is a small number of people who are very vocal on the internet regarding their problems. They in many cases are guys who race their cars and consider their warranty to be a free pit crew. Ask yourself - if the supposed Audi turbo problems were as bad as they're made out to be, then they would be getting AT LEAST as much attention as the current BMW M3 engine fiasco is getting nowadays.
------------------------------------------------
As has been pointed out many times, the 2 cars are different. The S4 is a hi-perf version of a entry level luxury car. The things that differntiate the base models of both cars continue on into the hi-po versions, as well. (I must say, it's funny that no one pursues comparisons of Impreza 2.0's to A4 1.8T's.)
------------------------------------------------
Let me say this, though. At this point, most of you still reading are thinking I'm an Audi shill. This simply is not true. I loved my previous car, a Mitsu Eclipse GSX, in part because it was small and somehow felt more tossable and fun. I believe that what I'm describing is the "soul" that the European mags like EVO and CAR claim is lacking in the S4. The S4 is just so well behaved - it's like the Seinfeld episode where Jerry is dating a woman he deems to "good a person" and states that the sex wouldn't be enjoyable because he respects her too much. He says there's "no depravity". It's the same with this car.
Despite my investment in my car, I am seriously pondering getting an Evolution or STi Impreza in 2004. After all, I wanted these cars for years and no matter how much I love my S4, I feel like a person who married the wrong woman. I have an STi calendar hanging over my computer, I have an STi Impreza on my wallpaper. I build plastic models and the majority are WRC Impreza's and Lancers (and Skylines).
I am very conflicted over what to do in the next couple years. I love the Lancer Evo, the Impreza WRX & STi and my Audi S4. They're all great cars. In some ways it's nice to have such great cars to choose from.
Just don't dis the S4.
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In case you were wondering
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BiTurboAudi
Just to clarify I was in no way trying to dis your, or any S4. I also agree with you about the childish threads you can often times find on any forums. It is always nice however when you can have an intelligent thread going that doesn't involve flaming.
Sorry to hear about your Suabru experience, I was able to get bith my New Subarus for 100$ above invoice, The first AUDI dealership I went to treated me like I didnt belong there and wanted to run my credit app before they even let me test drive any cars, even after I explained I wouldnt be finacing. (I guess I didnt dress up enough?).
Sorry to hear about your Suabru experience, I was able to get bith my New Subarus for 100$ above invoice, The first AUDI dealership I went to treated me like I didnt belong there and wanted to run my credit app before they even let me test drive any cars, even after I explained I wouldnt be finacing. (I guess I didnt dress up enough?).
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Dealers
You know, I'm surprised that there aren't more internet-based "friendly dealer" lists out there.
Many people rag on their Audi dealers, but so far mine has been great. My car has been in for service on a few occasions and they have not even mentioned my mods (except for the service manager who liked my Audi Sport all weather floor mats). It's likely they haven't looked for mods (like my chip) because they haven't had reason to. But some people say that their dealers are on missions to void warranties, especially on chipped cars.
If I were to get rid of my Audi, I would dearly miss the great way in which they treat me. I'm usually in before and after work, so I'm dressed business casual, but I also have a kinda "punk" look, with long sideburns, goatee and (usually) bleached or colored hair, too. They always give me service with a smile and the sales person I dealt with was great. Sometimes I think they find it refreshing to deal with a polite, younger (34) person versus the snobby execs and professionals who likely frequent the place. I wish I could send all prospective Audi buyers to this place!
My Subaru dealers on the other hand are also Buick and Pontiac dealers. They are (mostly) your usual, if not sterotypical, sales guys, who can't engage a person in a truly useful conversation about a car without giving a "pitch". The sales manager who told me $3000 over MSRP on the WRX has seen me a couple times with my S4 and he recognizes me. However, when I tell him the story about my treatment, he swears he doesn't know "who would have done that." (I have never said straight out "It was YOU!")
If I do get an STi, I will likely come to these boards and ask for recommendations and go get the car elsewhere, even if it means travelling to do so - or having the dealer deliver the car to me in Wisconsin. I've heard there is a good dealer in Illinois, but I don't have a clue who they are.
Many people rag on their Audi dealers, but so far mine has been great. My car has been in for service on a few occasions and they have not even mentioned my mods (except for the service manager who liked my Audi Sport all weather floor mats). It's likely they haven't looked for mods (like my chip) because they haven't had reason to. But some people say that their dealers are on missions to void warranties, especially on chipped cars.
If I were to get rid of my Audi, I would dearly miss the great way in which they treat me. I'm usually in before and after work, so I'm dressed business casual, but I also have a kinda "punk" look, with long sideburns, goatee and (usually) bleached or colored hair, too. They always give me service with a smile and the sales person I dealt with was great. Sometimes I think they find it refreshing to deal with a polite, younger (34) person versus the snobby execs and professionals who likely frequent the place. I wish I could send all prospective Audi buyers to this place!
My Subaru dealers on the other hand are also Buick and Pontiac dealers. They are (mostly) your usual, if not sterotypical, sales guys, who can't engage a person in a truly useful conversation about a car without giving a "pitch". The sales manager who told me $3000 over MSRP on the WRX has seen me a couple times with my S4 and he recognizes me. However, when I tell him the story about my treatment, he swears he doesn't know "who would have done that." (I have never said straight out "It was YOU!")
If I do get an STi, I will likely come to these boards and ask for recommendations and go get the car elsewhere, even if it means travelling to do so - or having the dealer deliver the car to me in Wisconsin. I've heard there is a good dealer in Illinois, but I don't have a clue who they are.
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BTW the next gen S4 will be a NA 350 hp V-8. They're hunting M cars, not Subarus.
It was never a direct comparrison in the first place but a pretty good topic. I hear they are using the engine that is in the RS6 minus the dual turbos.
As far as the dealer goes I'm 25 nobody thinks I have money. That is all I could guess was the problem.
It was never a direct comparrison in the first place but a pretty good topic. I hear they are using the engine that is in the RS6 minus the dual turbos.
As far as the dealer goes I'm 25 nobody thinks I have money. That is all I could guess was the problem.
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