Piggy back vrs euteK (TurboXS)
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 162
From: Reston VA (not dead, just reston)
Car Info: '02 WRX TurboXS Stage 4
Piggy back vrs euteK (TurboXS)
I am in the market to upgrade my ECU. I am going to go with TurboXS but I'm stumped on which model to go with. As far as TurboXS is concerned the UTEC is a more advanced system with better safeties built in, as well as being user tunable. I own a MAC so the user tunability is of little importance to me. I plan on taking it over to TurboXS to have them dyno my car and set it themselves. I was wondering if the extra $300 buck is really worth it for the UTEC or if I should go with the UNI-CHIP with. the prices are $999.00 and $700.00 respectively. Are the extra, built in safteties realy that much more advanced? What’s your opinion? Have any of you gone with the piggy back only to upgrade to the UTEC when it was released? I respect the people I have spoken to at TurboXS but they are trying to sell a product and I will feel more comfortable with my purchase after hearing what my fellow I-Clubbers have to say. Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks.
Last edited by Andersonwrx; Dec 26, 2002 at 10:12 PM.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I believe you're talking about the UTEC .vs. ECUTEK right?
go with the ecutek and get all the advantages of the OE ecu if you plan to upgrade once or twice and that you'll be happy at a certain level of performance. There is not much flexability once your ecu is tuned with the ecutek dealer unless you bring your car back for another retune session.
go with the utec if you plan on future upgrades one after the next. It's more flexible to future upgradades such as turbo, exhaust, etc...
third option? Cobb? If I read correctly, they are coming out with something similar to ecutek but the end user are able to tune the OE ecu themselves. The best of both world. Check out wrxforums.com
good luck...BlueMax
go with the ecutek and get all the advantages of the OE ecu if you plan to upgrade once or twice and that you'll be happy at a certain level of performance. There is not much flexability once your ecu is tuned with the ecutek dealer unless you bring your car back for another retune session.
go with the utec if you plan on future upgrades one after the next. It's more flexible to future upgradades such as turbo, exhaust, etc...
third option? Cobb? If I read correctly, they are coming out with something similar to ecutek but the end user are able to tune the OE ecu themselves. The best of both world. Check out wrxforums.com
good luck...BlueMax
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 162
From: Reston VA (not dead, just reston)
Car Info: '02 WRX TurboXS Stage 4
actualy I was in a hurry when I wrote the first post but the two systems I was talking about were the UTEC for $999.00 and the UNICHIP for $700.00.
I WILL AMEND THE FIRST POST.
I WILL AMEND THE FIRST POST.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 152
In the end with tuning on a dyno with wb o2 sensor, i dont see how you can go wrong with either a Utec or Unichip for your choices of piggyback engine management. Sure the Utec does offer end user tunability with the choice of several maps for each given condition..but performace is dictated by how close you get your fuel, timing, and/or boost maps to optimal conditions. Unless you definitly have a head on your shoulders and understand tuning..the UTEC and any other end-user programable engine management hardware out there could KILL your engine.
You have to remember that both piggyback on the stock ecu for their smoothness and reliablilty before getting into boost..unless overwritten by a tuner's specs
If you tune properly on the dyno with a Unichip, you can also retain stock reliability from the factory ecu for cold starts, etc.. while having your timing and fuel maps altered to an optimal state. It is good for the owner who wants to "set it and forget it"...until they want to swap out parts that will affect fueling/timing needs. Only downside to the Unichip I see is the expense of needing addtional programs if you switch gas types, elevation and boost.
The Unichip has been around for years and is used in many vehicles such as Porshce, Audi, Ferrari, etc..
More detailed info on the unichip and how it works can be found at
http://www.theracersgroup.com/theprogram_unichip.html
You have to remember that both piggyback on the stock ecu for their smoothness and reliablilty before getting into boost..unless overwritten by a tuner's specs
If you tune properly on the dyno with a Unichip, you can also retain stock reliability from the factory ecu for cold starts, etc.. while having your timing and fuel maps altered to an optimal state. It is good for the owner who wants to "set it and forget it"...until they want to swap out parts that will affect fueling/timing needs. Only downside to the Unichip I see is the expense of needing addtional programs if you switch gas types, elevation and boost.
The Unichip has been around for years and is used in many vehicles such as Porshce, Audi, Ferrari, etc..
More detailed info on the unichip and how it works can be found at
http://www.theracersgroup.com/theprogram_unichip.html
Guest
Posts: n/a
Ok, so i'm not a tuner, but it seems to me that unless you live in Nebraska, you want the flexibility that the factory ECU gives in terms of adjusting to changes in altitude. I don't have much experience with engine management, but I do have lots of experience tuning carbureted engines and I can say that if you don't have closed loop fuel control to the air flow sensor like the factory ECU, your car will run like crap every time you change elevation more than 1,500 ft or so, and temperature more than 25 deg F. I have learned this through tuning everything from snowmobiles to dirtbikes to jeep engines. From what I can tell, the only real solution unless, as you say, you have MANY maps pre-tuned, is the factory ECU. I think anyone looking for engine management right now ought to wait until they can afford to buy a series of upgrades all at once and get thier factory ECU remapped. Just my $0.02.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 162
From: Reston VA (not dead, just reston)
Car Info: '02 WRX TurboXS Stage 4
Good points all around, but.-Please bare with me as too much time spent with my relatives over the holidays has obviously broken part of my brain. The question I probably should have asked goes a bit more like this.
Does inconsistency in gas (like sometimes getting a bad tank of gas), elevation and external temperature give one ecu or the other more trouble? Does one have the ability to adapt better than the other to the fore mentioned changes or something like a leaky or clogged injector? I am most concerned with the safeties in the systems to guard against detonation, boost spikes and other possible occurrences that might necessitate the ecu to change timing or air fuel mixtures ect. Assuming I am finished with my engine modifications (I will be concentrating on suspension, interior and exterior mods for at least the next two years and don't plan on doing anything more to the motor as yet except for the ecu) does one system outshine the other in terms of being trouble free and reliable?
BLUMAX you mentioned some inconsistencies with the Uni-chip, could you be a bit more specific?
Thanks.
Does inconsistency in gas (like sometimes getting a bad tank of gas), elevation and external temperature give one ecu or the other more trouble? Does one have the ability to adapt better than the other to the fore mentioned changes or something like a leaky or clogged injector? I am most concerned with the safeties in the systems to guard against detonation, boost spikes and other possible occurrences that might necessitate the ecu to change timing or air fuel mixtures ect. Assuming I am finished with my engine modifications (I will be concentrating on suspension, interior and exterior mods for at least the next two years and don't plan on doing anything more to the motor as yet except for the ecu) does one system outshine the other in terms of being trouble free and reliable?
BLUMAX you mentioned some inconsistencies with the Uni-chip, could you be a bit more specific?
Thanks.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 152
I have seen the "Unichip inconsistancy" time after time. Most of these comments stem from people expecting to recieve out of the box peformance gains for exactly 30 hp, 50 hp, etc.. from the Unichip systems by Cobb, Vishnu and TXS.
You have to be realistic that none of these tuners have their systems mapped for exactly your car. Each car regardless of brand new off the show room floor is exactly alike. No one drives in exactly the "ideal" weather conditions, uses the same exact gas, etc...
The out of the box Unichip stages that these tuners offer are tuned in most cases "richer" than optimal...ALL suggest to have your car customed tuned for your specific list of parts, gas, etc..
In order to give the masses a level of satisfaction they give conservative fuel curves and timing (along with thier criteria..example stock air box, stock bypass valve, etc..)
Subaru of Japan even programs their ECU with much the same criteria so thier cars will run in all weather and gas condtions available.
Tuning is tuning...bottom line is that wether you use a Unichip, Utec or full standalone engine management like a TEC3 or Motec...you can get your car running great with any of these systems. Of course, some systems it is easier to get the tune right..others have soo much granularity about it, you can either get your car tuned like the space shuttle or even worse than a Yugo.
A good example of this is last year when Imprezer hit the 12s with his TEC2 setup tuned by Vishnu and was featured in Sport Compact...Alfriedesq beat his time by a couple tenths with a tuned Unichip!
Both of them have since changed their engine management for their reasons to self tune, log, etc.. but never the less , I know whatever systems they changed to, it is for thier purpose ease of tuning since they both swap parts out all the time to experiment with new mods.
You have to be realistic that none of these tuners have their systems mapped for exactly your car. Each car regardless of brand new off the show room floor is exactly alike. No one drives in exactly the "ideal" weather conditions, uses the same exact gas, etc...
The out of the box Unichip stages that these tuners offer are tuned in most cases "richer" than optimal...ALL suggest to have your car customed tuned for your specific list of parts, gas, etc..
In order to give the masses a level of satisfaction they give conservative fuel curves and timing (along with thier criteria..example stock air box, stock bypass valve, etc..)
Subaru of Japan even programs their ECU with much the same criteria so thier cars will run in all weather and gas condtions available.
Tuning is tuning...bottom line is that wether you use a Unichip, Utec or full standalone engine management like a TEC3 or Motec...you can get your car running great with any of these systems. Of course, some systems it is easier to get the tune right..others have soo much granularity about it, you can either get your car tuned like the space shuttle or even worse than a Yugo.
A good example of this is last year when Imprezer hit the 12s with his TEC2 setup tuned by Vishnu and was featured in Sport Compact...Alfriedesq beat his time by a couple tenths with a tuned Unichip!
Both of them have since changed their engine management for their reasons to self tune, log, etc.. but never the less , I know whatever systems they changed to, it is for thier purpose ease of tuning since they both swap parts out all the time to experiment with new mods.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Just for a start, Cobb tuning will be coming out with their own ecu product and there are some good information on factory ecu operation in general at
http://www.wrxforum.com/cgi-bin/ulti...c;f=3;t=001346
Now for the performance insonsitency: I didn't mean that for a given set of tools (let's say unichip piggy back to the wrx factory ecu) amongst the different tuner that the unichip is at fault for inconsistence performance number, hp/torque or what ever number you want to use. Different tuner have different tuning philosophy and will get different number with the same set of tools. You will get different number with the same tools, same tuner, same everything but on a different dyno day. There are to many variables. The numbers might be close but never a match.
So what I do mean about the Unichip and the OE wrx ecu is this: The OE ecu is highly adaptive/dynamic. It takes in data and spits out data for the safe operation of your engine under most condition (altitude, bad gas, hot/cold day, etc...). It will adapt to the changing conditon. Now when you mate the unichip to the factory ecu, you are altering input signals to the ecu so that the ecu is fooled and it will operate the engine according to your tuning/tuner. This might work for awhile but from time to time, the factory ecu will see something odd/strange/wrong and will try to adapt back to its safe preprogramed condition. That the performance inconsitency that I think happens with the unichip to the factory ecu.
In the end the choice is yours and your tuner. There's no right or wrong ecu, just different needs.
hope that makes sense....BlueMax
http://www.wrxforum.com/cgi-bin/ulti...c;f=3;t=001346
Now for the performance insonsitency: I didn't mean that for a given set of tools (let's say unichip piggy back to the wrx factory ecu) amongst the different tuner that the unichip is at fault for inconsistence performance number, hp/torque or what ever number you want to use. Different tuner have different tuning philosophy and will get different number with the same set of tools. You will get different number with the same tools, same tuner, same everything but on a different dyno day. There are to many variables. The numbers might be close but never a match.
So what I do mean about the Unichip and the OE wrx ecu is this: The OE ecu is highly adaptive/dynamic. It takes in data and spits out data for the safe operation of your engine under most condition (altitude, bad gas, hot/cold day, etc...). It will adapt to the changing conditon. Now when you mate the unichip to the factory ecu, you are altering input signals to the ecu so that the ecu is fooled and it will operate the engine according to your tuning/tuner. This might work for awhile but from time to time, the factory ecu will see something odd/strange/wrong and will try to adapt back to its safe preprogramed condition. That the performance inconsitency that I think happens with the unichip to the factory ecu.
In the end the choice is yours and your tuner. There's no right or wrong ecu, just different needs.
hope that makes sense....BlueMax
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 162
From: Reston VA (not dead, just reston)
Car Info: '02 WRX TurboXS Stage 4
BlueMax
So are you saying that a utec or uni-chip in conjunction with the factory ecu can not compensate for variables as well as just the factory ecu? Is that the trade off for the gains in performance?
What about re-mapping the factory ecu, will the same be true and does anybody re-map them? I didn't realize there was a trade off to upgrading the ecu. I guess I should have known. I just assumed it was an optimization process and that it would not effect the ecu's ability to adapt. I also assumed that having it done on the dyno and having a specific map for my vehicle, as opposed to just grabbing one that is close but not optimized for my set up, would mean that the inconsistencies would be negligible. I guess I should start a new thread to ask about people's specific difficulties with utecs and uni-chips. I obviously need to research the more.
Thanks for all the feed back and more will be appreciated.
So are you saying that a utec or uni-chip in conjunction with the factory ecu can not compensate for variables as well as just the factory ecu? Is that the trade off for the gains in performance?
What about re-mapping the factory ecu, will the same be true and does anybody re-map them? I didn't realize there was a trade off to upgrading the ecu. I guess I should have known. I just assumed it was an optimization process and that it would not effect the ecu's ability to adapt. I also assumed that having it done on the dyno and having a specific map for my vehicle, as opposed to just grabbing one that is close but not optimized for my set up, would mean that the inconsistencies would be negligible. I guess I should start a new thread to ask about people's specific difficulties with utecs and uni-chips. I obviously need to research the more.
Thanks for all the feed back and more will be appreciated.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Get the UTEC. The latest version of their software offers closed loop boost control (which automatically compensates for altitude and atmospheric changes) so if for example you want to run 15.5 PSI at 4500 RPMs you run 15.5 PSI weather you are at sea level of 4000ft (the alternative is to spend 300 for a good EBC for the same functions). The UTEC also offers knock protection - if the computer sees knock it will retard your timing (you can set the amount of correction and the number of crank cycles to correct for). I don't believe the UNICHIP does this. You also get data logging, auxillary solenoid control (for water sprayers, NOS, propane, etc), multiple maps, and flexability that you don't get from the Unichip.
If you don't want all the toys of the UTEC go with the ECUTEK, the Unichip was just a bandaid.
If you don't want all the toys of the UTEC go with the ECUTEK, the Unichip was just a bandaid.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Anderson,
I was talking about the Unichip specifically and not the Utec. The Utec came about because of the Unichip inconsistency piggybacking on the wrx ecu. The Unichip can piggy back on a wide variety of ecu and is a fine product. However, it may not be the best for the wrx ecu. The reasons I mentioned above. The Utec is specifically made for the wrx ecu and should yield better performance consistency.
If you don't need an ecu right away, I would wait and wait. There should be a few ecu products coming out from various vendors for the wrx.
Happy New Year....BlueMax
I was talking about the Unichip specifically and not the Utec. The Utec came about because of the Unichip inconsistency piggybacking on the wrx ecu. The Unichip can piggy back on a wide variety of ecu and is a fine product. However, it may not be the best for the wrx ecu. The reasons I mentioned above. The Utec is specifically made for the wrx ecu and should yield better performance consistency.
If you don't need an ecu right away, I would wait and wait. There should be a few ecu products coming out from various vendors for the wrx.
Happy New Year....BlueMax
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 162
From: Reston VA (not dead, just reston)
Car Info: '02 WRX TurboXS Stage 4
Thanks alot guys. I was able to ask alot of good questions when I spoke to the forlks a TurboXS about the utec an unichip. You all have made me much more informed on the subject and I realy appreciate it. I'll be going with the utec in case you wondered.
Have a good new years and thanks again.
Have a good new years and thanks again.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Andersonwrx
Engine/Power - EJ20T (pre-2006 WRX and JDM)
1
Dec 22, 2002 01:41 AM
