You sound like a military recruiter.........Sign me up!

So, even after you leave the military, you keep your security clearance status?

 

It depends.

Your security clearance has an expiration date. If you leave the military before that expiration date, you still have an active security clearance. If you HAD a security clearance in the recent past, it is not as expensive to get you a new one as it would be if you were starting from scratch, since your file would still be available at CCF, and your likelihood of getting an interim clearance pending a final determination and award of clearance is higher. If you are still in the reserves, or if your clearance is still active, it is a matter of filling out some paperwork to get a verification of clearance from CCF, so the employer has record of your current clearance.

 

lowend you dont know what youre talking about. i am a sergeant i make close to 50k with housing and benefits and im only an E5. furthermore, i wouldnt trade being an NCO for an officer no matter how much the pay is. fact is, officers are more staff and out of touch with soldiers in a lot of instances with few exceptions. i would never trade having ten soldiers for more pay. yea, being a pl technically gives you 40 soldiers or whatever, but you dont know them like your sergeants do. some people arent in the military for the money anyhow, were in it to serve our country and we enjoy our jobs.

 

Once again, don't confuse roles. An NCO has a different role than an officer. For some people, being an NCO suits them, for others, being an officer does. Yes, a sergeant knows the troops in his immediate circle more intimately than the PL or the CO, but that is because it's his JOB to know them. The PL and the CO are responsible for more than that NCO, in terms of troops and equipment. Does that make one more important than the other? Of course not. There is a need for both types to make an unit run properly. You need NCOs that lead the troops at the squad and team level. You need NCOs at the 1SG and CSM level. You need 1LTs and 2LTs at the Platoon level, and CPTs at the company level.

I don't know any, ANY NCO, that is qualified AND WILLING to run a company without an officer to insulate the troops from higher HQ. NCOs generally want to do their job without interference from higher (BN, Bde, hell, sometimes even Company). For NCOs, the CO or PL is there to make sure higher does not muck things up and make their jobs harder... which, interestingly enough, is the role of any middle manager in an organization. The officer's job is to filter instructions and orders from higher so only the essential components get to the lower levels, so the platoons/squads/teams can do THEIR job with a clear goal in mind. Soldiers work best when they have a clear goal in mind. The officers in their immediate chain of command are responsible for giving them that. NCOs lead troops. Officers "manage." There is a difference. The higher one goes, the less one "leads" and the more one "manages". This applies to both NCOs and Officers. Ask any E7 or E8 if they "lead" more now than they did when they were E5s, and if they "manage" more now than before.

Oh, and having been a Platoon Leader and Company Commander, I can tell you that *I* was in touch with my troops. A good leader knows his/her troops. He may not know them as well as their immediate team and section sergeants do, but he better damn well know them. Otherwise, he is an ineffective leader and manager. Knowing your troops' individual strengths and weaknesses makes you more effective, and managing those individual strengths and weaknesses makes your UNIT more effective.

See where I'm getting at here? Every rank has a role. Don't confuse things by forgetting what the appropriate roles are. A person has to decide, based on accurate information, how best to serve. If being an NCO appeals to a person, great, but how would that person know unless s/he were given an accurate picture of what NCOs and Officers do? Also, YMMV. Every experience is different. Some NCOs ARE put in positions of leadership and do more managing than leading, but this is not the norm.

Oh, and just for reference, I was enlisted from 1991 to 1995, after which I got my commission, so I know of what I speak

 

im an NCO im well aware but thanks for the education.

and i hate to say this to you, but as a general rule, officers are the biggest pain in the ***, especially LTs and CPTs, and are the MOST likely to **** **** up.

the month that i spent in PLDC where there isnt a SINGLE NOT ONE officer was the best month of my career, in that everything went on time, as planned, and discpline was at its best. politians...err...officers are the ones that screw **** up.

officers half of the time think that their degree makes them experienced. most of them have degrees in anything but what is related to their job, and their 4 years experience and automatic promotion all the way to captain puts them basically in a position to simply listen to the first sergeant on almost every single issue. i have never seen the commander not ask a first sergeant with 20 years in the military what he thought. frequently i have seen first sergeants utterly obliterate a LT or CPT for making a stupid descision that could potentially have cost lives, and i have countless examples of such.

you can say what you want, but, when it comes time to leading troops - soldiers are not looking towards the officers for guidance, i can completely assure you.

this is slightly different in some combat units as the lower officers are more intermingled and trained with the troops than other units, but most units are not infantry units either. occasionally you will get an officer who is worth a million bucks, but 99 times out of a 100 that officer was at least enlisted if not an NCO before going officer.

 

well, did you know that Officers also go through the equivalent training that you go through at PLDC? Did you know also know that, despite what you think, an officer was in charge of your PLDC cadre? You may not have ever encountered them, but rest assured, they were there. Who do you think did your cadre's NCOERs? Who was responsible for their counseling? There were officers in the immediate chain. HOWEVER, as I said, their role was NOT to instruct you. That's NCO business. Roles again.

As a general rule, I've also found that buck sergeants tend to think more highly of themselves than necessary , and I held E5 positions in my unit while as a cadet before getting my commission.

You also assume a LOT about what officers go through, and what makes them qualified. It's not just that 4 year degree. It's not just the commissioning program they went through (whether service academy, ROTC, direct commissioning, or OCS/Green to Gold). It's the Officer Basic Course they have to attend. It's the Advanced Officer Course, Combined Armed Services Staff School, Battle College, Command and General Staff Course. Sure, it's automatic to Captain, but I can tell you that if you aren't working your *** off and doing a good job in the positions you are assigned (PL, Company CO, BN Staff, etc.), then you aren't getting to Captain or Major. It's not as easy as you seem to think.

Of course a soldeir will look to the sergeants for guidance. You are SUPPOSED to start at the lowest level of the chain of command. A soldier knows that the platoon sergeant or the squad leader is there to take care of his needs, to watch over him. That's the NCO's ROLE. However, let's get something straight here. Who do the SERGEANTS look to? Who does your platoon sergeant look to? Who does the First Sergeant look to? The officers. Not for GUIDANCE, but for DIRECTION, for ORDERS. An officer and an NCO work as a team so the SOLDIER can be effective.

Look, you have your perspective. I'm not saying it's invalid. What I'm saying is, there's more to it. Your single perspective might be accurate for YOU, but it's not universal truth. I've seen the same issues when I was enlisted. I saw the other side of it when I became an officer. The biggest difference is that the FOCUS changes. As an NCO, your focus is the soldiers below you. As an officer, your focus is the unit as a whole and the mission. The stakes are greater. You'll find that as you go higher and leave the team/squad level, become a Platoon Sergeant or First Sergeant, that you will get that same distance from the troops that you accuse officers of having. As I said, it's all a matter of perspective.

But I don't have to tell you that. You're an NCO. You have the NCO creed to uphold. Show me again in the NCO creed where it says that you belittle officers because you think they are all useless?

 

uh, no there is no officer in charge of PLDC cadre, there is a 1SG and CSM (commandant), not one single officer.

heh, yes im an E5 about to pin on E6 within a few months, after less than 4 1/2 years in the military i know a bit or two about it.

Give me a ****ing break about the OBC. that is the biggest ****ing joke, and most officers except you (ironically, your comment about E5s applies here as well) evidently will even admit that. ive watched LTs make the CPT list, they damn near have gotten us killed in real world combat. you have to totally **** up. and most officers dont have half of those schools you listed until they have gotten much higher in rank...which is when they are more likely to be worthwhile after they have some time in.

no, the soldiers will look towards the PSG just as well as a SGT E5 anyday with the same respect and confidence. have the PL lead the platoon through battle drills and see what they think. the SERGEANTs look to the PSG, 1SG, and CSM for orders only, but as i said, its the senior NCOs who are half of the time telling the officers what orders to issue, so dont pull that crap either. if you have been in a real unit for a second, you would know that the 1SG is the one really running the show. the CDR fills out paperwork and makes the actual policies because thats the way the military works.

in every unit ive been in the PSG doesnt look to the PL for ****. the PL is there to learn FROM the PSG. the PL is "released" when the PSG feels he knows enough of what the hell he is doing. any LT who thinks they can lead their platoon through combat without have first learning from the PSG is going to get men killed unless they were a PSG at one point before becomming an officer. you rattle off names of courses that some LTCs dont have and act like all officers are subject to these courses, when most LTs have at most a 4 year degree and that "oh so difficult" OBC.

Lieutenants are like privates, in that they really dont know **** and generally if given complete reign of something **** it up. Captains are like specialists in that they have a pretty firm grasp of what is going on but still need guidance, direction, reasoning, and want that "permission" from their NCO (in this case, the 1SG). when the officer starts making rank to MAJ, then he has got some serious time in the army. the difference between CPT and MAJ is pretty huge. LTs and CPTs are a dime a dozen and generally with few exceptions that i have already mentioned (heavier combat units, and prior enlisted NCOs) prone to jack **** up. if you want, i can spend about 45 minutes while im making dinner typing up a list in just the last three or so years where officers have oblitterated missions and almost gotten people killed for real and in training on a consistant basis.

now you start talking MAJ+, thats a different story. now at MAJ+ its more of a join cooperation as opposed to mentorship.

im telling this guy that just because of some e-dickery on an internet message board not to necessarily believe that going officer is the most fufilling and rewarding idea to go with.

 

Haha, u know, im not gonna mention any names, but whoever trained some of you did a real good job brainwashing. God Bless America, she needs all the blessings she can get.
-John

 

So, again, as I said, your experience and perspective are different.

My experience of 14.5 years, part of which was enlisted, is different. You must have had some bad officers. Thankfully, I didn't have that many bad ones (and I remember the bad ones quite clearly), either as enlisted or as an officer. You think OBC is a joke? That's funny. My OBC had a 50% failure rate on first time GOes, with a few recycles. Think it's that easy? Things may have changed since I graduated from OBC, but my OBC certainly wasn't "easy" or "useless." I don't know what branches you are referring to, but I daresay my branch OBC was no cakewalk.

You think CPTs look to the 1SG? Having HAD (and replaced) 1SGs when I was a Company Commander, I call BS. Sorry, I have the experience there, and I KNOW what the 1SGs job is. Ask permission? Nope. Never did. You exaggerate the role of the NCO. Should I point out the relevent passages in the NCO creed?

You act like there are no bad NCOs. Let me tell you, there are a LOT more bad NCOs than officers. There are NCOs I've given bad NCOERs for being complete and total incompetents. There are NCOs I've given mediocre NCOERs (either as a rater or senior rater) that deserved them. There are NCOs I've kicked out of the service (bar to reenlistment, bad conduct discharge). I'm sure you know a few, so don't act like NCOs are perfect. I've had more bad NCOs than good ones, and I've had PLENTY of top10% NCOs that I've promoted out of my units because they were good, and deserved to be promoted to go to high speed jobs. You want to point to bad apples? I have plenty I can point to as well. People killed? Yep, had one NCO prosecuted for that. DUI? Yep, few of those. AWOL? Yep. Numerous safety violations? Oh yeah. Fraternization? Check. Individual failures are the same, regardless of rank.

Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.

I posted to give A 04 GUIZE my perspective, and as much information as I could so he could make an informed decision, based on his particular needs. Why not do the same, without the accusations? There are always bad apples, in every rank, in every service. Going the commissioned route may not be for him, but he deserves to hear both sides.

 

Go ahead, post names.

What's to be afraid of?

 

im scared, so scared, I choose not to post names for a reason. I will continue my freedom of choice and not post any names. God Bless America and the Freedom it gives us.
-John

 

well i went to the meps yesterday. i ship out next monday oct. 3 to Fort Sill. Im a 13b

 

Looks like there a quite a good many military guys on this forum..

 

KING of the battlefield. BOOM!!!!!

 

ooh.. so you decided to be a cannon cocker gun bunny.

that could be fun. You'll be playing with 155s, 105s, and, if you are lucky, A6 Paladins (155mm Self Propelled howitzers that can stop, conduct a fire mission, and then leave, all in about a minute). Good stuff!

Good luck at Basic and AIT. Remember the phrase "Water off a duck." No matter what the drills say or do, let it slide off your back like "water off a duck." Basic is mostly mental. If you can suck it up and find the intestinal fortitude to go beyond being wet, tired, hungry, and stressed, you will do fine. Good luck!