Yeah, I found that site last night while doing some research on Google. So it looks like you put 3 oz of ATF and 25 oz of Mineral Spirits per Gallon of Tulene or Xylene. And you can use Diesel fuel in place of the ATF.
Blue
But again, no answer on whether it protects the fuel system. Mainly it said it was so it wouldn't wash the Oil off of your Cylinder walls.
Blue
But again, no answer on whether it protects the fuel system. Mainly it said it was so it wouldn't wash the Oil off of your Cylinder walls.
Registered User
Quote:
I also DID get some on my skin when pouring it, and it dried up my hands instantly. I WILL wear gloves next time.
just as an fyi latex gloves wont cut it; it will go through them - ull need nitrile gloves (u can find those in uhhh chemical supply places)I also DID get some on my skin when pouring it, and it dried up my hands instantly. I WILL wear gloves next time.
definately dont let it on ur paint it will eat right through it
VIP Member
I've tried 104 and 100 octane. Mixed them into get about 94+ octane total ratio. I've felt no difference. At best, maybe it was a bit smoother. When I've added straight Xylene or Toluene, holy burnin' gasoline, Batman, VAVOOOOOM. By raw math, the octanes should be about the same between mixes, from the ratios I've created.
In the end using Home Depot paint remover products with lubricants as suggested on various websites is a bit cheaper and I don't have to drive 50 miles just to get it :-/
The real question: is one more harmful than the other to engine and fuelsystem components?
jason
p.s. Being that I work at the west coasts premeier unclassified national laboratory, I might be able to find a scientist who can answer my questions
If I do, I'll post here.
jason
In the end using Home Depot paint remover products with lubricants as suggested on various websites is a bit cheaper and I don't have to drive 50 miles just to get it :-/
The real question: is one more harmful than the other to engine and fuelsystem components?
jason
p.s. Being that I work at the west coasts premeier unclassified national laboratory, I might be able to find a scientist who can answer my questions
If I do, I'll post here.jason
Registered User
You won't notice the octane bump if your maps aren't bumping timing to take advantage of it. The additives might have different burn characteristics, making them more noticeable, sort of a quasi-nitrous effect.
Registered User
do you have to have to add those lubriciants and stuff? (the mineral spriits and ATF) or is that just so we can reproduce octane booster..what abot a gallon or two of struiahgt toluene mixed w/ 91 octane and with nothing else?
Once again, I will post this thread which has a lot of useful information about toluene:
http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html
And some very good facts about toluene:
(THE ORIGINAL)
http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html
And some very good facts about toluene:
Quote:
Someone came across a web page that described various DIY home brew octane booster formulas. One of which used toluene as its main ingredient. As a Formula 1 racing fan of many years, I recalled that toluene was used extensively in the turbo era in the 1980s by all the Formula 1 teams. The 1.5 liter turbocharged engines ran as much as 5 bars of boost (73 psi) in qualifying and 4 bars (59 psi) in the actual race. Power output exceeded 1500bhp, which translates into 1000bhp/liter, an astronomical figure.
A motorsports journalist, Ian Bamsey, was able to obtain Honda's cooperation for his book "McLaren Honda Turbo, a Technical Appraisal". The book documents the key role that the toluene fuel played in allowing these tiny engines to run so much turbo boost without detonation. The term "rocket fuel" originated from the Formula 1 fraternity as an affectionate nickname to describe its devastating potency. Thus I concluded that I should focus my research on using toluene for my octane boosting project.
Individuals with good long term memory will recall that when unleaded gasoline was first introduced, only low octane grades were available. While it is not entirely clear that high octane super unleaded gas came about as a result of the advances in fuel technology in Formula 1, there is every reason to suspect that this is indeed the case, since many of the major oil companies were involved in the escalating race to develop increasingly potent racing fuel during this era.
Kurlee DaddeeSomeone came across a web page that described various DIY home brew octane booster formulas. One of which used toluene as its main ingredient. As a Formula 1 racing fan of many years, I recalled that toluene was used extensively in the turbo era in the 1980s by all the Formula 1 teams. The 1.5 liter turbocharged engines ran as much as 5 bars of boost (73 psi) in qualifying and 4 bars (59 psi) in the actual race. Power output exceeded 1500bhp, which translates into 1000bhp/liter, an astronomical figure.
A motorsports journalist, Ian Bamsey, was able to obtain Honda's cooperation for his book "McLaren Honda Turbo, a Technical Appraisal". The book documents the key role that the toluene fuel played in allowing these tiny engines to run so much turbo boost without detonation. The term "rocket fuel" originated from the Formula 1 fraternity as an affectionate nickname to describe its devastating potency. Thus I concluded that I should focus my research on using toluene for my octane boosting project.
Individuals with good long term memory will recall that when unleaded gasoline was first introduced, only low octane grades were available. While it is not entirely clear that high octane super unleaded gas came about as a result of the advances in fuel technology in Formula 1, there is every reason to suspect that this is indeed the case, since many of the major oil companies were involved in the escalating race to develop increasingly potent racing fuel during this era.
(THE ORIGINAL)
More good facts for the lazily impaired:
(THE ORIGINAL)
Quote:
Mindful of the evil reputation of octane boosters in general, toluene is a very safe choice because it is one of the main octane boosters used by oil companies in producing ordinary gasoline of all grades. Thus if toluene is indeed harmful to your engine as feared, your engine would have disintegrated long, long ago since ordinary pump gasoline can contain as much as 50% aromatic hydrocarbons.
Toluene is a pure hydrocarbon (C7H8). i.e. it contains only hydrogen and carbon atoms. It belongs to a particular category of hydrocarbons called aromatic hydrocarbons. Complete combustion of toluene yields CO2 and H2O. This fact ensures that the entire emission control system such as the catalyst and oxygen sensor of your car is unaffected. There are no metallic compounds (lead, magnesium etc), no nitro compounds and no oxygen atoms in toluene. It is made up of exactly the same ingredients as ordinary gasoline. In fact it is one of the main ingredients of gasoline.
Toluene has a RON octane rating of 121 and a MON rating of 107, leading to a (R+M)/2 rating of 114. (R+M)/2 is how ordinary fuels are rated in the US. Note that toluene has a sensitivity rating of 121-107=14. This compares favorably with alcohols which have sensitivities in the 20-30 range. The more sensitive a fuel is the more its performance degrades under load. Toluene's low sensitivity means that it is an excellent fuel for a heavily loaded engine.
Toluene is denser than ordinary gasoline (0.87 g/mL vs. 0.72-0.74) and contains more energy per unit volume. Thus combustion of toluene leads to more energy being liberated and thus more power generated. This is in contrast to oxygenated octane boosters like ethanol or MTBE which contain less energy per unit volume compared to gasoline. The higher heating value of toluene also means that the exhaust gases contain more kinetic energy, which in turn means that there is more energy to drive turbocharger vanes. In practical terms this is experienced as a faster onset of turbo boost.
Chevron's published composition of 100 octane aviation fuel shows that toluene comprises up to 14% alone and is the predominant aromatic hydrocarbon. Unfortunately composition specifications for automotive gasoline is harder to pin down due to constantly changing requirements.
Kurlee DaddeeMindful of the evil reputation of octane boosters in general, toluene is a very safe choice because it is one of the main octane boosters used by oil companies in producing ordinary gasoline of all grades. Thus if toluene is indeed harmful to your engine as feared, your engine would have disintegrated long, long ago since ordinary pump gasoline can contain as much as 50% aromatic hydrocarbons.
Toluene is a pure hydrocarbon (C7H8). i.e. it contains only hydrogen and carbon atoms. It belongs to a particular category of hydrocarbons called aromatic hydrocarbons. Complete combustion of toluene yields CO2 and H2O. This fact ensures that the entire emission control system such as the catalyst and oxygen sensor of your car is unaffected. There are no metallic compounds (lead, magnesium etc), no nitro compounds and no oxygen atoms in toluene. It is made up of exactly the same ingredients as ordinary gasoline. In fact it is one of the main ingredients of gasoline.
Toluene has a RON octane rating of 121 and a MON rating of 107, leading to a (R+M)/2 rating of 114. (R+M)/2 is how ordinary fuels are rated in the US. Note that toluene has a sensitivity rating of 121-107=14. This compares favorably with alcohols which have sensitivities in the 20-30 range. The more sensitive a fuel is the more its performance degrades under load. Toluene's low sensitivity means that it is an excellent fuel for a heavily loaded engine.
Toluene is denser than ordinary gasoline (0.87 g/mL vs. 0.72-0.74) and contains more energy per unit volume. Thus combustion of toluene leads to more energy being liberated and thus more power generated. This is in contrast to oxygenated octane boosters like ethanol or MTBE which contain less energy per unit volume compared to gasoline. The higher heating value of toluene also means that the exhaust gases contain more kinetic energy, which in turn means that there is more energy to drive turbocharger vanes. In practical terms this is experienced as a faster onset of turbo boost.
Chevron's published composition of 100 octane aviation fuel shows that toluene comprises up to 14% alone and is the predominant aromatic hydrocarbon. Unfortunately composition specifications for automotive gasoline is harder to pin down due to constantly changing requirements.
(THE ORIGINAL)
And a little comparison with Toluene vs. Race Gas:
(THE ORIGINAL)
Quote:
Q: Why not simply use racing gasoline or aviation fuel?
Answer 1: Most types of aviation fuel have very high lead content, which would rule out cars equipped with catalytic converters. Most piston engined aircraft burn leaded fuel. Also aviation fuel has a very different hydrocarbon mix to optimize volatility properties at high altitude.
Q: Why not simply use racing gasoline or aviation fuel?
Answer 1: Most types of aviation fuel have very high lead content, which would rule out cars equipped with catalytic converters. Most piston engined aircraft burn leaded fuel. Also aviation fuel has a very different hydrocarbon mix to optimize volatility properties at high altitude.
Quote:
Answer 2: Racing gasoline could be a much more convenient way to run high octane fuel compared to having to constantly mix in toluene with each fill up. There are, however a few caveats:
You don't know for sure if you are really getting what is being advertised. You should find out if the fuel inspectors verify the actual octane of the racing gasoline in addition to ordinary gasoline. If you paid $3/gallon and only got 94 or 95 octane instead of 100 octane you may conclude erroneously that your car does not benefit from octane boosting.
You don't know what octane boosters are used in the racing gasoline. The worst case scenario is buying leaded racing gasoline without knowing it. Unleaded racing gasoline may still contain damaging octane boosters like MMT or methanol. A very high alcohol content will lead to fuel line erosion, accelerated fuel pump wear, very poor fuel economy and possibly lower performance, as alcohols have a less impressive MON rating than aromatics.
It takes smaller quantities of toluene to achieve the same octane boost compared to 100 octane racing gas. I have not seen unleaded racing gas for sale that exceeds the octane rating of toluene.
Since toluene is not officially sold as a fuel, gas taxes do not apply. Also racing gasoline tend to have higher markups being of interest to the performance minded enthusiast and thus is very likely to be more expensive to buy and use long term than toluene, which is typically used in more mundane applications like paint thinner.
Kurlee DaddeeAnswer 2: Racing gasoline could be a much more convenient way to run high octane fuel compared to having to constantly mix in toluene with each fill up. There are, however a few caveats:
You don't know for sure if you are really getting what is being advertised. You should find out if the fuel inspectors verify the actual octane of the racing gasoline in addition to ordinary gasoline. If you paid $3/gallon and only got 94 or 95 octane instead of 100 octane you may conclude erroneously that your car does not benefit from octane boosting.
You don't know what octane boosters are used in the racing gasoline. The worst case scenario is buying leaded racing gasoline without knowing it. Unleaded racing gasoline may still contain damaging octane boosters like MMT or methanol. A very high alcohol content will lead to fuel line erosion, accelerated fuel pump wear, very poor fuel economy and possibly lower performance, as alcohols have a less impressive MON rating than aromatics.
It takes smaller quantities of toluene to achieve the same octane boost compared to 100 octane racing gas. I have not seen unleaded racing gas for sale that exceeds the octane rating of toluene.
Since toluene is not officially sold as a fuel, gas taxes do not apply. Also racing gasoline tend to have higher markups being of interest to the performance minded enthusiast and thus is very likely to be more expensive to buy and use long term than toluene, which is typically used in more mundane applications like paint thinner.
(THE ORIGINAL)
Also, here's a MSDS on Toluene:
(THE ORIGINAL0
Quote:
Health Hazard Data
================================================== =========================
LD50-LC50 Mixture: LD50 (ORAL RAT) IS UNKNOWN
Route Of Entry - Inhalation: YES
Route Of Entry - Skin: YES
Route Of Entry - Ingestion: YES
VAPOR/AEROSOL CONCENTRATIONS >1000 PPM IRRITATE EYES & RESPIRATORY TRACT.
INGESTED:SMALL AMTS ASPIRATED INTO LUNGS MAY CAUSE MILD TO SEVERE PULMONARY
INJURY.
Carcinogenicity - NTP: NO
Carcinogenicity - IARC: NO
Carcinogenicity - OSHA: NO
Explanation Carcinogenicity: MFR LISTED NO INFORMATION ABOUT THE
CARCINOGENICITY OF THIS MATERIAL.
Signs/Symptoms Of Overexp: INHALATION:HEADACHE, DIZZINESS, ANESTHESIA,
DROWSINESS, UNCONSCIOUSNESS, BRAIN DAMAGE & POSSIBLY DEATH.
Med Cond Aggravated By Exp: EXISTING DERMATITIS.
Emergency/First Aid Proc: EYE:FLUSH WITH LARGE AMOUNTS OF WATER UNTIL
IRRITATION SUBSIDES. SKIN:FLUSH WITH LARGE AMOUNTS OF WATER; USE SOAP IF
AVAILABLE. REMOVE GROSSLY CONTAMINATED CLOTHING AND LAUNDER BEFORE REUSE.
INHALED:REMOVE THE EFFECTED VICTIM FROM EXPOSURE. ADMINISTER ARTIFICIAL
RESPIRATION IF BREATHING IS STOPPED. INGESTED: DO NOT INDUCE VOMITING. KEEP
AT REST. GET PROMPT MEDICAL ATTENTION.
Kurlee DaddeeHealth Hazard Data
================================================== =========================
LD50-LC50 Mixture: LD50 (ORAL RAT) IS UNKNOWN
Route Of Entry - Inhalation: YES
Route Of Entry - Skin: YES
Route Of Entry - Ingestion: YES
VAPOR/AEROSOL CONCENTRATIONS >1000 PPM IRRITATE EYES & RESPIRATORY TRACT.
INGESTED:SMALL AMTS ASPIRATED INTO LUNGS MAY CAUSE MILD TO SEVERE PULMONARY
INJURY.
Carcinogenicity - NTP: NO
Carcinogenicity - IARC: NO
Carcinogenicity - OSHA: NO
Explanation Carcinogenicity: MFR LISTED NO INFORMATION ABOUT THE
CARCINOGENICITY OF THIS MATERIAL.
Signs/Symptoms Of Overexp: INHALATION:HEADACHE, DIZZINESS, ANESTHESIA,
DROWSINESS, UNCONSCIOUSNESS, BRAIN DAMAGE & POSSIBLY DEATH.
Med Cond Aggravated By Exp: EXISTING DERMATITIS.
Emergency/First Aid Proc: EYE:FLUSH WITH LARGE AMOUNTS OF WATER UNTIL
IRRITATION SUBSIDES. SKIN:FLUSH WITH LARGE AMOUNTS OF WATER; USE SOAP IF
AVAILABLE. REMOVE GROSSLY CONTAMINATED CLOTHING AND LAUNDER BEFORE REUSE.
INHALED:REMOVE THE EFFECTED VICTIM FROM EXPOSURE. ADMINISTER ARTIFICIAL
RESPIRATION IF BREATHING IS STOPPED. INGESTED: DO NOT INDUCE VOMITING. KEEP
AT REST. GET PROMPT MEDICAL ATTENTION.
(THE ORIGINAL0
And for the grand finale, here is a great article on toluene and its effects for using it as a fuel injector cleaner.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/...=5;t=000065;p=
Kurlee Daddee
(THE ORIGINAL)
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/...=5;t=000065;p=
Kurlee Daddee
(THE ORIGINAL)
Registered User
It sure doesn't look like Toluol is as potent as people had previously proclaimed.
I was told my many that it is a DNA mutagen, and a very toxic carcinogen. It looks like it is niether.
I am still scared as hell of it, and wear gloves and open air when playing with it.
I ran 3 gallons of Toluene (Brand name) with 12 gallons of Chevron 91...roughly 20% and roughly 96 octane.
I could not get the car to detonate. Pushed her to nearly 21 PSI on a 91 octane 17 psi map. I also added some timing in the middle.
I am of the firm belief that it is much more knock resistant than 100 octane Union pump gas.
Tomorrow I am going to do another 20% batch.
I want to get a wideband o2 sensor, and try to really run a lean map...as lean as I can go. Big power is to be made with this stuff...big power.
I mix a 50:1 ATF+3 mix into this stuff just for the fuel lines sake. I have all Earls -8 fuel line under the hood, so it should be OK regardless.
It is about the same as filling up with 76/100 as far as cost (Paying $6.50 a gallon Sherwin Williams retail), but Mike(MPJ) says he can get it in a 55 gallon drum for $2 a gallon. That would be a steal.
Sherwin Williams is going to report me for running a meth lab here before long :P
Later guys,
Andy
I was told my many that it is a DNA mutagen, and a very toxic carcinogen. It looks like it is niether.
I am still scared as hell of it, and wear gloves and open air when playing with it.
I ran 3 gallons of Toluene (Brand name) with 12 gallons of Chevron 91...roughly 20% and roughly 96 octane.
I could not get the car to detonate. Pushed her to nearly 21 PSI on a 91 octane 17 psi map. I also added some timing in the middle.
I am of the firm belief that it is much more knock resistant than 100 octane Union pump gas.
Tomorrow I am going to do another 20% batch.
I want to get a wideband o2 sensor, and try to really run a lean map...as lean as I can go. Big power is to be made with this stuff...big power.
I mix a 50:1 ATF+3 mix into this stuff just for the fuel lines sake. I have all Earls -8 fuel line under the hood, so it should be OK regardless.
It is about the same as filling up with 76/100 as far as cost (Paying $6.50 a gallon Sherwin Williams retail), but Mike(MPJ) says he can get it in a 55 gallon drum for $2 a gallon. That would be a steal.
Sherwin Williams is going to report me for running a meth lab here before long :P
Later guys,
Andy
VIP Member
Just curious. How much is 76/100 there in CA? It's $6.009/gal here. Xylene (higher octane rating than Toulene and easier to find) is $8-10/gal and easy to find. Right down the street at Lowes.
Thanks
Thanks
VIP Member
nevermind. I see you bastids get it for $4.29/gal. Enjoy!
VIP Member
group buy on 55 gallon drums of tol?
Im down for a 55 gallon drum if it is like 2.xx a gallon!!
do you know HOW MUCH THAT WOULD SAVE ME!!
Im down for a 55 gallon drum if it is like 2.xx a gallon!!
do you know HOW MUCH THAT WOULD SAVE ME!!