to clearify the hose issue....even thought they switched out the ristictor it still put the same number down on the dyno..

so i dont think that had anything to do with it....
+ everyone tuned on the same car with "some" down time (for cooling)

edgar
<---the one with the weird/freak car

 

I think you just need to come to terms with that

Also, you may have put down the same HP w/w/o the restrictor, but once your boost starts getting messed with due to the reflashes, it may have made a difference for one or more vendor. The point isn't that the car was different, I'm just thinking that such bizarre testing conditions may not make for a reliable, repeatable testing environment, despite the fact that the car and dyno were the same.

Cheers,
Kenn

 

Bingo.

However, a few people mentioned that ALL tuners had knock. Even though you can't hear it, doesn't mean that it can't show on the graph. I saw Ed's graph today. Highest on there was 212. Where did the 219 go?

-Gagan

 

Why don't you guys post the A/F ratio and knock maps (if they are available) to get the record straight. If people see those maps, it will be clear, which tuner has the most reliable maps with most power.

---

I do all the work on my car myself. I am proud of that, but I will be the first one to admit, that I cannot tune even my own car. I mean, I can play around with the A/F and timing matrix's and get some power, but I am not confident in myself that I can do that safely.

When I say safely, I mean 100% safety. No knock under any conditions. Not a little bit. Not some when it is hot. Not some when it is cold. Not some when I don't brush my teeth.

Safe tuning means no knock.

Also, knock sensor tuning is also critical, as it allows the ECU to "recover" in case there is knock due to some outside factors that could not have been taken into consideration. For example, a tank of bad gas.

That is exactly how COBB's ECU worked. Since COBB does not tune his cars based on CA gasoline, that ECU did produce minor ping due to some variences. Thats is where the knock sensor kicked in and pulled timing and prevented further detonation.

Shiv's ECU did not produce any knock at all according to many witnesses. That is because Shiv has a lot more experience with CA 91 octane gas and hundreds of WRX's he tuned in the house on his dyno.

i-Speed's ECU was producing major ping-ponging. That was confirmed by Ed and the owner of the car, after which, no further runs were allowed and the one and only run was "aborted" because of the very audible and lenthy detonation.

---

Here is an example. One tuner. One car. Two different ECU's. They are identical, except for the peak power RPM range. ECU number one did not produce ping and layed down (for example) 200hp. The other one, which is once again, identical to the first one, but in the peak power RPM range runs a leaner and more ignition advance produces 215hp and a detonation serenade.

Which one would I pick? Of course, #1. Which ECU is a better ECU? Of course #1. Which is safer? #1. Which makes more power? Well, haha, #2. But why would anyone want an ECU which would demolish your car's engine not only on "Oh, it was hot", or "Oh, I had a bug stuck in my IC", or "Oh, I was going up hill" ocasion, but even under normal circumstances.

As we all seen, the conditions at the dyno day at ATP were less that boosted motor friendly. Hot. Small fans, etc. If an ECU doesn't ping there, it will not ping at all. That is safe.

---

I have been just reading all this for the entire day and could not hold it anymore. People need to stop ignoring such major factors as D-E-T-O-N-A-T-I-O-N. I mean if you don't care for knock and just want few extra HP at the expence of damaging your engine, then ECU remapping is not for you. Get some big *** FRP, crank up the fuel pressure, get some silly piggy back fuel controller, crank it all the way up and drive happy.

All said above is based on what I have read on a number of forums, my presence at ATP during some runs and conversaitons with tuners, users.

---

In my opinion, to determine who the winner is, show us the HP numbers along with A/F ratio (to determine how lean or rich it was running) and the knock sensor readout. That will show who made horsepower and who made pingpower.

- Alex



- Alex

 

GREAT post Alex. I agree with every word of what you said.

Peak numbers mean nothing. Numbers with severe det mean nothing.

I appreciate the presence of both local tuners at the dyno day...but I think we need to be realists about the power that was made and where the skills truly lie.

 

Today, my spelling and gramma skills, for example are not here. Sorry. Haha. It's too hot.

 

what?

this doesn't make sense?

wait... you're telling me that shiv USE TO tune your car? now I-Speed does?

is that what you are saying?

why did you switch?

SD

 

does anyone have a picture of my car on the Dyno by chance?

the black sedan with the silver subzeros and greddy lip

if you do please post it or email it to Zoeb@SubyDude.com

Thanks!
-Zoeb

 

ALEX..... very well said

really i think people are claiming a winner on only hp numbers and that is not the case nore the point of this test....

RELIABILITY is what the test was all about....pings dont count

 

re·li·a·ble ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-l-bl)
adj.
1. Capable of being relied on; dependable: a reliable assistant; a reliable car.
2. Yielding the same or compatible results in different clinical experiments or statistical trials.

----

realiability is tested in the REAL world not on a dyno session.

 

Some people are just a bit ignorant if you ask me and lack technical knowledge to tall a difference between a ping and a fart. Their personal hate towards certain tuners make them even more ignorant with their comments. That makes them, those ignorant people, look very very, well, simply put stupid. They are the ones that are claim things ahead of everyone else.

Here is another exampe (I like examples ).

A race. 2 cars are head to head for the entire race. Then, 3 laps before the end, car #2 jumps ahead of the car #1, passes it and stays in pole position for the next 1 lap. Then, it simply crashes into a wall and is out of the race. Car #1, finishes the race as the winner.

Now, those stereotypica die-hard haters of car #1 driver, will be screaming that #2 won, because it was faster. They would be blind with hate and ignorance that that is the only thing they will scream.

However, GET A CLUE! #2 crashed. Who gives a hoot if it passed #1 at some point for a lap. It crashed.

---

Hehe.

 

Joe, you are right. Reliability cannot be tested on the dyno.

However, I think that having reliability on the dyno is the first step to have any reliability at all. I mean, if a car has no reliability on the dyno, it will not be reliable on the street.

A car that is reliable on the dyno, is making a first step towards that overall reliability.

- Alex

 

alex

you are comparing dyno result to racing... not quite the same thing.

it was an ECU shootout for basemaps... it wasn't a TUNING contest.

because if it was a tuning contest I-Speed would have gotten rid of the pinging after 5500... and they'll still be peaking at 219 whp.

SD

 

again alex... it wasn't a TUNING contest.

it was a basemap contest... I-Speed's basemap just happen to have a higher peak whp at that day... on that car... in the conditions.

do you seriously think I-Speed will release a map that was pinging up top?... you know and I know they'll fix it before releasing it.

SD

 

Joe, be serious for a second and listen to me.

Just facts:

1. i-Speed made more power
2. i-Speed was pinging so bad, that the one and only run was aborted
3. COBB and VISHNU made less power, but completed the runs they were given and did not produce sustained detonation.

---

Now you tell me who won.

I don't think it was really about who won or who lost. It was a good learning experience for everyone.

There is nothing wrong with loosing.
There is nothing wrong with winning.
There is nothing wrong with being DNFed.

---

If I was Bill, I would not "claim" a victory. I would DNF myself. Nothing wrong with that. That takes a lot, but makes you a bigger man.