THIS JUST IN: you can get a urinary tract infection from wearing a dyper as well as having sex with little boys. i hate to say it but i think the pope DID wear a diaper in his later days...

he was an old *** dude!!

oh yeah and getting involved in political business that is none of your business is OK UNLESS you are speaking for the god damn catholic church.

 

go Team Satan!!!!

 

Dumbest
Thread
Evar

 

clearly you have little to no understanding of this "classical" view of heaven you speak of or of the teachings of jesus.

So I will speak of the "classical" view.

Your works on this planet have NOTHING to do with your entrance to heaven. This however difficult to grasp is what is tought.

Take for example...Saul. The man found joy in persicuting christians in every creative way his mind could conjur. Yet God for mercy on him and he became one of the most influencial people in christianity. Paul.

So yes the pope forgiving his wouldbe assasis is a great example of this. But good or bad his actions don't reflect his entrance to heaven.

If the man has faith and has sought after the grace and gift of christs death and the victory of his resurrection then he is going to heaven. That and only that determines your entrance to heaven.

Speaking for this "classical" view you speak of.

 

If your earthly actions have no bearing on your eventual fate, why does so much of the Catholic canon teach the value good works? According to your interpretation, such good works have no bearing your future, and are therefore without value to you.

In fact, the Catholic canon has long stated that earthly actions can condemn you - take the 7 deadly sins, for example. The physical and thought crimes described in those sins are clearly earthly deeds that will affect your entry.

Of course, the Church is, as always, rife with inconsistency. Your view is upheld by Ephesians 2:8-9, which states "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." But then 1:Timothy 5:8 states "But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." Clearly, not providing for your own is a earthly deed, and according to this passage is tantamount to denying your faith, which is sufficient to keep you from heaven.

Choose to believe what you will about the 'classical' view, because the 'classical' view is anything BUT clear.

 

it is an interesting thought, I will say that. But it's motives I doubt where to provoke a thought inspiring debate.

Is this the quote from buddha you are talking about?

"Do not go by revelation or tradition,do not go by rumour, or the sacred scriptures, do not go by hearsay or mere logic, do not go by bias towards a notion or by another person's seeming ability and do not go by the idea 'He is our teacher'. But when you yourself know that a thing is good, that it is not blameble, that it is praised by the wise and when practised and observed that it leads to happiness, then follow that thing."

I'm sure buddha getting up and leaving his wife and kids lead to their happiness. maybe we should follow him.

interestingly enought the First Noble Truth is that life is suffering. To live, you must suffer. It is impossible to live without experiencing some kind of suffering.

Buddhist have some great philosophy in their teaching...but interestingly enough if you get past all the bull**** and all of your own thoughs and read Jesus' teaching...they are very parallel. The Dali Lama actually talks about it in a very interesting book and it has been spoken about by many buddhist teachers in the past. Very parallel. Even Buddha and Jesus shared teaching and leadership styles.

One thing I do find interesting though is the second noble truth is that all suffering is caused by craving.

So I suppose buddha's family suffered because they craved the love of their father and husband.

Or I suppose that the pain someone feels when they get shot is because they crave to live...not because a flaming hot peice of metal blasted a hole in their lung.

I can't say I agree with karma.

but hey...maybe I'll die happy with my family living comfortable and well off seeing me go. I mean that seems only right considering how much I've had stolen from me. Including my mother and two father figures. Or I suppose it was karma that got all those kids raped in africa by men thinking it would heal them of aids.

But hey.....I guess I don't really understand karma. But I put my tips in the karma jars at local coffee shops all the time anyways.

 

non of us are even close to an iota of this man's one good deed(unless you devote all your time helping others)...he almost lived a whole lifetime serving the people. do you really think he deserves such mockery?? if so, that's on you. but i can tell you one thing for sure though....he has accomplished and aided the people more than any of us will ever do, even if we each lived two lifetimes

 

true. I didn't say I "believed" anything. Just mearly stating what the "classical" view states.

to expand upon it and your statements.
You are not purely condemned by your actions but by your very nature as the nature of man is sin.

the 7 deadly sins do not condemn you to hell. You are given a choice to overcome those sins just as you are of simpler sins, as all sins are seen as equal in the eyes of god...though sexual sin has a more direct effect on you. Again...just saying what it says.

Paul..forgiven of murder. David....forgiven of murder and adultery. The ***** at the well..forgiven for adultery.

I participated a very interesting debate that started on a very simple question....
Is Jeffrey Dahmer in heaven? It disgusted all these holy'r than though people that went to church 4 days a week and paid their tithes and did their "duties" and "ministries".

But it's a decent question. Because reports are...he accepted Christ's salvation before he was beaten to death by other criminals that found his acts that disturbing.

Again..just saying.

 

and the answer will be Hell why put a poll. We all are going to hell for sure.

 

EOM

 

I'm sure a lot of what you think about Pope John Paul II doesn't matter because of Church mandate.

The Pope is globally accepted as one of the most influential political figures and positions in the world. He was a major contributor in the fall of communism in Europe and actually risked being assassinated by the Soviet Union because of it. He also dealt with powerful leaders like Fidel Castro (etc) on a few occasions.

 

May the man rest in peace but my question is why cannot the media leave us in peace. It will be all about Pope for next n number of days and where ever you go there will be discussions from all possible people (some who are not even qualified to discuss about the Pope(great man even though I am not a christain)).

It is the media that pisses me off.

 

Christianity contains an ethics of "good works" because ethical behavior is what people allied with God do out of a growing, sanctifying naturality This does not mean other people are incapable of living ethically, even in a manner similar to Christian ethics. It also does not mean that everyone who calls themselves Christian and appears ethical is Christian. This does mean that Christians are actively aware that the call of Jesus Christ is a call to allegiance and hope in the promises of God. This in turn produces certain behaviors that are not based upon a set of rules but are the result of that allegiance and hope. The idea is, if someone calls themself "Chrsitian" but his or her life does not reflect that allegiance and hope, their christianity is suspect becuase the natural out-pouring of that hope is not present. E.g. I am free to love others because God is already caring for me. If I operate selfishly, I am not living out of hope in God's care. Basically. People celebrate what they believe. This is why any form of orthodox (creedal) Christianity teaches ethics. Ethical bebavior is the celebration of hope in God.

Problems arise when people mistake Christianity for a set of specific behaviors or patterns of behavior. When Paul, or any biblical author, discusses ethics it is always within the context of God's character as revealed in his (God's) own behavior, his command, and his calling together a people. When we take any of these things, especially ethics (his command), out of that context, Christianity appears to be a set of rules that are falling all over themselves. This is not a problem with the text, but of the reader who ignores that the Christian scriptures have an over all purpose to re-create human existance, not just to fix things or make people act better. It is out of, as I said differently earlier, allegience - an entire change of perspective. Naturally from this comes changes in behavior. People celebrate what they believe. If you are not celebrating it, you probably do not believe it.

Note that in your own quotes Paul says to Timothy "is worse than an unbeliever". The "worse" isn't some ethical condemnation but the accusation of suspicious allegiance. Paul is basically asking, and he asking this over and over in so many ways in his letters, "How can you behave like this when God when you supposedly have your hope in God?!"

It is wrong enough to pull verses out of its context with nearby verses, or even the chapter, or even a whole book for that matter. But even when utilizing to those contexts, there is still something missing which when missing leaves the hermeneutics of Scripture up to personal devices. What always must be done when investigating Scripture is to look at the entirety of God's character revealed and ask ourselves, "How does this ally with that character? What does this have to do with Jesus Christ? How does it fit into the calling of God's people? How does this fit into what it means to hope in God's promises?". If you're going to look at this stuff through a papertowel tube, its always going to filter heavily through your own desires and outside of the overall hope that Scripture provides, leading you into this exact sort of confusion.

jason

 

Holy crap bro. This I did not expect...>I mean you used the word "hermeneutics."

Not many even know what it means.

Insanely well said.

 

I wonder how different the poll results would be if you posted it on, say, a Buick LeSabre owners' board.