"conspiracy theorist" that's just it I want facts.

 

That is true....and that is a good thing, DONT believe everything you hear/read....the PROOF is in the puddin'......but on the flip side...what happens when the proof DOES come and its already too late to do anything about it? There has to be a certain degree of scepticism in anything we hear or read about, otherwise we would all be morons...But there is also a point when you have to take a look at some more subtle hints and "find the sliver before it gets infected." In otherwords....just because you cant directly see something doesnt mean it isn't there.

But you do make some good points as well....there will always be 2 sides to every story, ya know?

And thats right, we DONT know 100% for sure....all we can do is gather up the pieces we CAN find, keep our eyes open and see the signs, and draw our conclusions from that.....even then....people interpret different things in different ways, all we can hope for is to find that happy medium.


Welp, the debate has been fun....I am going home now....finally


I'll "see" y'all tomorrow, and possibly some of you at UCKK 2nyte.

just thought of something funny for all you ex-ravers out there..... PLUR! LOL

-Ted

 

YEAH!!! I honestly have a huge amount of respect for your after reading that. I'm not being a smart *** either.

:banana:

 

First off I had a post about how our rights are being taken away (ie patriot and other recent acts) but the 2 1/2 page word document was lost before I could cut and paste

This is a great thread, I just spent the last hour reading all the posts and some of you know more than I think I will ever know. Keep it goin, and if anything I understand comes up I will pipe in

 

Right on! and thank you :banana:....ya see, I think you and I have the same feelings on this here...but at the same time....I am just looking at things with a bit more powerful magnifying glass....I mean c'mon now, really.....you can't honestly tell me that the gov't having the power to:

-snoop through your personal email (probably even snail mail too),
-listen in to your personal phone conversations,
-use spyware, key loggers, and secret mics., to find out what you do and who you talk to on the phone, 'net, computers, palm pilots, banks, etc.,
-force airlines to disclose personal info about ALL of their passengers,
-and force VOIP providers to rewire their networks to make it easy for the FBI/DEA/INS/Police to tap the line and literally listen in on your phone calls at THEIR convienience w/o a warrant or a just cause. (Heck that means they could even see what games you play and who you talk to on XBOX LIVE!)
-Arrest and detain you for an undisclosed length of time for the simple fact that they THINK you MIGHT be a "domestic terrorist" because you used the word "Bomb" in a phone conversation.

is NOT an invasion of our Civil Liberties? Reguardless of if we have anything to hide or not.....I dunno, but thats just not cool with me.....Heck, if you wanted to have some fun with that, we could take a poll to see what I-Clubbers think on that issue.

I'm hungry....gonna go get some grub now.

Later

-Ted

 

Of course the government has the power to do such things. That's not really the point I'm trying to make. I keep hearing about that the evil people are taking away are rights. I want to know what information you got to make you think that way. I read the articles linked in this thread prior and when I dove deeper into I found that some of info was misrepresented or vague. I probaly look at things with a bigger microscope then you since I actually spent about an hour reading the patriot act and tried to decipher it. It's a lot of legal jargon.

If I'm reading this right, oh and I could be very wrong. It states that you must make an application to get a businesses materials and have it approved by a judge. That's sounds just like a supena to me. Also they cannot do this if all they (the business) are doing is excersing their 1st amendment rights. There is a part about how no one other than the people invloved in the investigation can see the materials which would be like tampering with evidence and I think local investigations fall under that same guidlines, but I could be wrong. The minimal rank is "Assistant Special Agent in Charge" which is about the equivilent of a detective I think.

`SEC. 501. ACCESS TO CERTAIN BUSINESS RECORDS FOR FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE AND INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM INVESTIGATIONS.
`(a)(1) The Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation or a designee of the Director (whose rank shall be no lower than Assistant Special Agent in Charge) may make an application for an order requiring the production of any tangible things (including books, records, papers, documents, and other items) for an investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution.

`(2) An investigation conducted under this section shall--

`(A) be conducted under guidelines approved by the Attorney General under Executive Order 12333 (or a successor order); and
`(B) not be conducted of a United States person solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
`(b) Each application under this section--

`(1) shall be made to--
`(A) a judge of the court established by section 103(a); or
`(B) a United States Magistrate Judge under chapter 43 of title 28, United States Code, who is publicly designated by the Chief Justice of the United States to have the power to hear applications and grant orders for the production of tangible things under this section on behalf of a judge of that court; and
`(2) shall specify that the records concerned are sought for an authorized investigation conducted in accordance with subsection (a)(2) to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities.
`(c)(1) Upon an application made pursuant to this section, the judge shall enter an ex parte order as requested, or as modified, approving the release of records if the judge finds that the application meets the requirements of this section.

`(2) An order under this subsection shall not disclose that it is issued for purposes of an investigation described in subsection (a).

`(d) No person shall disclose to any other person (other than those persons necessary to produce the tangible things under this section) that the Federal Bureau of Investigation has sought or obtained tangible things under this section.

`(e) A person who, in good faith, produces tangible things under an order pursuant to this section shall not be liable to any other person for such production. Such production shall not be deemed to constitute a waiver of any privilege in any other proceeding or context.

 

Yes i wrote a freaking report on the damn peice of law. a year or so ago

Do a search for the ingelligence funding bill for 04 you will find that tacked on to that bill is a portion of the domestic security act of 2003.

They simply couldnt pass the entire bill at once so now they tack it on to the coat tails of larger bills that will not get vetoed due to one small portion of that bill containing something people dont like. Its simple realy, just takes a bit more time to get all the laws enacted. Your right just cause we can see the law for its ability to be GROSSLY abused by a minority doesnt mean that you can. And like wise goes for just about anything.

 

Since i dont want to sit here and quote portions of law that refer to other portions of law that then refer to other portions of law for their true meaning ill leave you this simple quote by good ole benjie franklin

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security"

( http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/.../~c108IKcOnq:: )
Look at sub section 374, it refers to another chunk of us code to define what it is defining (what a financial insitution is). Its a round about circle jerk desgined to get portiosn of law passed under the radar, or if they are seen on the radar to anchor them to very important bills that no one can veto or say no to. (intelligence funding being one of them)

 

in my eyes intent is three quarters of the law

As you can tell by intent alone the goverment wants to be able to do what ever the hell it wants to do when ever the hell it wants to. Which is fine and dandy for some but others feel diffrently. I for one am somewhat on the fence, i can make some concessions but will not tolerate others. What pisses me of the most is the fact that people in general have no idea wtf is going on, reminds me of the fall of rome to be honest. Create festivals, gladiator shows, circus's, and all sorts of entertainment to keep everyone busy while behind the scenes society is crumbling at its very foundations. (while i hope this is not the case in our current society)

 

bah **** it here is the portion of law that defines what a financial insitituion is

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/31/5312.html

It was expanded from basicly banks and credit card companys.

 

I agree with most of this. I remember reading ancient rome by isiac azimov and being total stunned at how many parrels from Rome and the US. It amazes me how history repeats itselfs even when some people are aware of it. We as humans have been doing the same crap for thousands of years. What's funny is the government has the power to do all kinds of crazy ****, but can barely keep from collasping under it's own legacy systems. It doesn't run effeiceintly enough to become this monolithic big brother all seeing and all knowing monster since at it's core is still run and designed by humans anyway, but maybe not???. Pardon me I went it a bunch of directions since it's early and I've barely had by coffee. Thanks guys for this discussion I haven't been this intellectually stimulated in a long time.

 

hah no prob man and i think you are right to a certain extent but you forget that modern computer systems take alot of that inefficency of burucratic bull**** away. Its all a simple SELECT statement away.

 

I guess, all we can really do is be aware of our surroundings and not be afraid to voice our opinions and feelings. Yes, like you had said, The bills that you quoted are still protecting certain rights that we have as US Citizens Right now....My point is that with certain bills that have yet to be passed or hidden within other bills that wont get vetoed, the integrity of our rights will be compromised.....

this is taken from here.

"Patriot Act: What it is

On October 26, 2001, just six weeks after the devastation on September 11, Congress passed the USA Patriot Act. Ashcroft and his cronies wasted no time in attempting to further their agenda at the expense of a traumatized nation. USA Patriot is an acronym for "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism", but all that elaborate language does not succeed in hiding the dangerous nature of the document.

So just what does the Patriot Act give the Bush administration the right to do? Well, for starters, it allows the FBI to monitor everything from e-mail to medical records to library accounts, providing frightening access to once private information. They can now legally wiretap phones, break into homes and offices, and access financial records without probable cause.

The Patriot Act broadens terrorism to include "domestic terrorism" which could potentially be used to target activist groups within the country speaking out against Bush's treacherous deeds.

The Patriot Act also disregards attorney-client privilege and authorizes government surveillance of previously confidential discussions.

Immigrants can be detained indefinitely based on suspicion alone, and the Patriot Act aids the excessive amounts of deportations that are taking place.

Calling this the Patriot Act is quite a dangerous action within itself, because the implication follows: if you speak against the Patriot Act, well, you sure aren't being a good citizen in our country's time of need. When Bush labels his actions as the model of patriotism, he then classifies all dissent as un-American. While this may be comforting to him, it is actually an insult to patriotism. Protecting the Constitution and the Bill of Rights demonstrates a great respect for the government of this country and the rights of its citizens, and that sounds downright patriotic.

Read the text of the Patriot Act here.


Patriot II: What it is

It's not over yet. Currently, the Justice Department is working on the Domestic Security Enhancement Act, an extension of the Patriot Act that has been dubbed "Patriot II". Perhaps one of the most dangerous aspects of this bill would grant the government the right to detain someone indefinitely without ever disclosing their identity, allowing the person to ultimately disappear. It would also broaden local police's ability to spy on "terrorist" groups, including domestic religious and political organizations. The government could take sweeping "anti-terrorist" action, like obtaining an individual's financial and library records without a warrant and allowing wiretaps without a court order. How else could this affect you? Well, if you engage in civil disobedience, the government would have the right to strip you of your citizenship! Had enough? Stop this act before it starts!"
-----------------------------

And here is a short snippet of info taken from here. The Center for Constitutional rights, aka CCR.

"Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of the government's actions has been its attack on the Bill of Rights, the very cornerstone of our American democracy. The War on Terror has seriously compromised the First, Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights of citizens and non-citizens alike. From the USA PATRIOT Act's over-broad definition of domestic terrorism, to the FBI's new powers of search and surveillance, to the indefinite detention of both citizens and non-citizens without formal charges, the principles of free speech, due process, and equal protection under the law have been seriously undermined."
-------------------------------

And here is a link to the American Civil Liberties union, with a crapload of good links that will further explain how these "patriot acts", and other bills are infringing on our civil liberties as Americans......Due to the lenght of this post already, I am not gonna paste any more snippets from it, but there is a ton of info here ----> http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/Safe...ID=12126&c=207

 

LOL, I never thought I would make a post that was "too long", I had to cut it up into 2 parts....LOL

As a final thought, I have to say Thank you as well to seven881 and to Dre, it has been a long time as well since I have really been able to get my mind juices flowing as much as this....you are an excellent "opponent" in a debate (seven881)...and you keep your composure well.....Mad Props to both of you

-Ted

 

http://www.bushin30seconds.org/view/2802_small.shtml