Are we REALLY safer now?
07-13-2004, 05:57 PM
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Are we REALLY safer now?
I just listened to one of bush's recent speaches regarding Iraq after the Senate intelegence commitee came out saying that there was no (or very little ) REAL intelegince that there was WMD's in Iraq. In this speach he kept on saying that we are safer today than we were before we invaded Iraq, and i thought it would be cool to know the views of the other members on here (from both political points of view.) Please leave your views on Bush as a person out of this, and please just focus on weather or not we are safer, and why.
Personally I belive we are less safe today than we were before we invaded Iraq. Yes, there is no dispute that Saddam Hussein was/is a bad man, BUT, i belive that by trying to stop this one "bad man" we let the many other's become stronger and more powerful while we were/are concentrating on cleaning up the mess in Iraq. Also, we have turned A LOT more people against us during this process (think many middle easteners who before didnt like us, but didn't hate us) and some of these people have become so angry at us that they are willing to give or risk their lives to get rid of us.
(will add more later)
Personally I belive we are less safe today than we were before we invaded Iraq. Yes, there is no dispute that Saddam Hussein was/is a bad man, BUT, i belive that by trying to stop this one "bad man" we let the many other's become stronger and more powerful while we were/are concentrating on cleaning up the mess in Iraq. Also, we have turned A LOT more people against us during this process (think many middle easteners who before didnt like us, but didn't hate us) and some of these people have become so angry at us that they are willing to give or risk their lives to get rid of us.
(will add more later)
07-13-2004, 06:09 PM
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i dont see how we could be safer, we have basicly swatted a wasps nest, the only thing we have going for us now is that the religious nuts are focused on iraq as a battle ground and not the rest of the world. Once they figure out there is no hope in iraq they will refocus on creating general chaos the world over.
So its just a matter of time if you ask me, and the one thing about terrorism that the administration has yet to figure out is that you cant bomb it, you cant kill all its participants, you cant kidnap and terrorize it or its followers. You have to attack the heart and mind, the motivations for it to kill it. It is not a nation state it is a way of thinking, a way of perception, you cant bomb a way of perception and thinking. Likewise in fact by taking those direct actions you are only ridding the world of a few and creating 10 more in the shadows. By using terror to fight terror you only create more terror.
So its just a matter of time if you ask me, and the one thing about terrorism that the administration has yet to figure out is that you cant bomb it, you cant kill all its participants, you cant kidnap and terrorize it or its followers. You have to attack the heart and mind, the motivations for it to kill it. It is not a nation state it is a way of thinking, a way of perception, you cant bomb a way of perception and thinking. Likewise in fact by taking those direct actions you are only ridding the world of a few and creating 10 more in the shadows. By using terror to fight terror you only create more terror.
07-14-2004, 08:52 AM
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Although we'll never be able to completely rid of terrorism I believe we're a lot safer. New measures have been taken since 9/11 as a wake-up call for every person and federal intelligence/security agency.
Saddam may not have had a strong link with al Qadea or other terrorist cells but he did have training camps near the Iraq/Iran borders and some people i've encountered over the years have been to said camps and taken pictures. I can share them if you like...
If you're in bed with the enemy then you're in bed with the enemy in my opinion. There's no partial rape or murder in the real world, right?
Other than that, we've gone a long way to rid a powerful dictator, his regime and provide a strong footing for Iraq to start a new beggining. One without fear and oppression so doesn't that count for anything?
Let's not forget that the terrorist group al Qaeda has been damn near crushed since the beggining of Operation Anaconda and OEF. The fact Abu Musab al-Zarqawi has stooped to beheading contractors and capturing other allied/U.S. muslims is a sign of weakness. Furthermore, the fact some known terrorists have fled to Iran for "amnesty" shows a major sign of instability among al Qaeda.
Like i've said before, we're always going to have the possibility of terrorism from this day forward. I know it can get annoying in regard to security warnings in "yellow" and "red" on holiday weekends but American's have ALWAYS been willing to sacrafice for the sense of security eventhough it's a cry for wolf.
Personally, I think we should put all the cards on the table! Don't "half-***" the security measures! Instead we need to put a noose on our borders and do what all effective police forces have been doing for years via profiling. If you see someone matching the identity of a terrorist then you search him damnit! I've been on about 10 flights since 9/11 and had encouters with security in Washington D.C. twice when i could literally point out suspect individuals. They picked my number for a "complete frisk" with an automated system that puts a red mark on your ticket. I'm not trying to sound racist here... it just seems like a step in the right direction. For that matter, i believe EVERYONE should get a complete baggage and body frisk at the airports and other security hot spots.
Saddam may not have had a strong link with al Qadea or other terrorist cells but he did have training camps near the Iraq/Iran borders and some people i've encountered over the years have been to said camps and taken pictures. I can share them if you like...
If you're in bed with the enemy then you're in bed with the enemy in my opinion. There's no partial rape or murder in the real world, right?
Other than that, we've gone a long way to rid a powerful dictator, his regime and provide a strong footing for Iraq to start a new beggining. One without fear and oppression so doesn't that count for anything?
Let's not forget that the terrorist group al Qaeda has been damn near crushed since the beggining of Operation Anaconda and OEF. The fact Abu Musab al-Zarqawi has stooped to beheading contractors and capturing other allied/U.S. muslims is a sign of weakness. Furthermore, the fact some known terrorists have fled to Iran for "amnesty" shows a major sign of instability among al Qaeda.
Like i've said before, we're always going to have the possibility of terrorism from this day forward. I know it can get annoying in regard to security warnings in "yellow" and "red" on holiday weekends but American's have ALWAYS been willing to sacrafice for the sense of security eventhough it's a cry for wolf.
Personally, I think we should put all the cards on the table! Don't "half-***" the security measures! Instead we need to put a noose on our borders and do what all effective police forces have been doing for years via profiling. If you see someone matching the identity of a terrorist then you search him damnit! I've been on about 10 flights since 9/11 and had encouters with security in Washington D.C. twice when i could literally point out suspect individuals. They picked my number for a "complete frisk" with an automated system that puts a red mark on your ticket. I'm not trying to sound racist here... it just seems like a step in the right direction. For that matter, i believe EVERYONE should get a complete baggage and body frisk at the airports and other security hot spots.
07-14-2004, 10:41 AM
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^^ salty. spot on as usual. let's kill all Arab men while we are it. That way we will have nothing to fear. My good friend from Pakistan would be thrilled
Hmmm... actually Hitler was on to something in this regard. Small armbands of the star of David identified the threat in Germany? Maybe we can get one of those cool Target designers to come up with some equally posh for our Arab brothers?
Hmmm... actually Hitler was on to something in this regard. Small armbands of the star of David identified the threat in Germany? Maybe we can get one of those cool Target designers to come up with some equally posh for our Arab brothers?
07-14-2004, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by dub2w
^^ salty. spot on as usual. let's kill all Arab men while we are it. That way we will have nothing to fear. My good friend from Pakistan would be thrilled
Why does everything have to be so extreme with you? I never said anything about killing all Arab's and/or Muslims. All i'm saying is that you can't have your cake and eat it too. There has to be a happy-medium regarding security that I don't think we've reached (or will ever reach) in this PC country.
Let's not play stupid by comparing apples & oranges either. Last time I was at the airport I never saw an 80yr old woman who matched the description of an al Qaeda terrorist. Mind you, the very same woman that was getting her bags checked while the other TSA agent checked her shoes and garmets.
BTW. You make it seem like you're "well-versed" and special because you have a Pakistani friend. Well Laddie Freakin' Da! You're not the only one with pals of other ethnic backgrounds. You remind me of the type that frequents local coffee houses in attempt to convince everyone your "original philosophical ideals" haven't been thought of by great minds 1000yrs ago
Do me a favor.. write a book regarding your travel on how you've sailed the 7 seas and tasted the finest columbian coffee's. Be sure to have your Pakistani friend write a review on the back cover. Once you're done PM me and i'll give it a look-see. Mmmmkay, tia. [/sarcasm]
07-14-2004, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by State Dept
"There were 208 acts of international terrorism in 2003, a slight increase from the most recently published figure of 198* attacks in 2002, and a 42 percent drop from the level in 2001 of 355 attacks.
A total of 625 persons were killed in the attacks of 2003, fewer than the 725 killed during 2002. A total of 3646 persons were wounded in the attacks that occurred in 2003, a sharp increase from 2013 persons wounded the year before. This increase reflects the numerous indiscriminate attacks during 2003 on “soft targets,” such as places of worship, hotels, and commercial districts, intended to produce mass casualties. "
Note
Most of the attacks that have occurred during Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom do not meet the longstanding U.S. definition of international terrorism because they were directed at combatants, that is, U.S. and Coalition forces on duty. Attacks against noncombatants, that is, civilians and military personnel who at the time of the incident were unarmed and/or not on duty, are judged to be terrorist attacks.
A total of 625 persons were killed in the attacks of 2003, fewer than the 725 killed during 2002. A total of 3646 persons were wounded in the attacks that occurred in 2003, a sharp increase from 2013 persons wounded the year before. This increase reflects the numerous indiscriminate attacks during 2003 on “soft targets,” such as places of worship, hotels, and commercial districts, intended to produce mass casualties. "
Note
Most of the attacks that have occurred during Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom do not meet the longstanding U.S. definition of international terrorism because they were directed at combatants, that is, U.S. and Coalition forces on duty. Attacks against noncombatants, that is, civilians and military personnel who at the time of the incident were unarmed and/or not on duty, are judged to be terrorist attacks.
Double speak anyone? Ill have a hot heaping scoop of it!!!
07-14-2004, 12:42 PM
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i hate to agree on salty here but from a straight security point of view, security follows logical thought. If you know there is a threat from psycho clowns to blow up an airplane via suicide bomber. You can bet your *** that every person dressed like a clown should be frisked/searched. **** probed.
That is just common sense, yes that does violate said clowns personal liberites, but when it comes down to it there is realy no way that security and personal freedoms can co mingle, technology makes it EASIER for them to exist (for those who are dumb and dont understand the technology) but they never can. IE walk thru x ray machines, simply because a machine is looking into your pockets is no better then a person doing the same. BUt somehow since its a machine its "ok".
You get my drift, salty is right, and if you ask me everyones rights should be violated equally, hell you should sign an "i will allow my rights to be violated so i can fly on said airplane" contract if you ask me. A bit of searching and frisking while annoying as hell and potentially embarssing (its no my swedish ***** pump baby!!) is still better then letting someone slip thru and kill hundreds if not thousands.
And as for profiling being effective, it is and it isnt, once your enemy knows your tactics he will shift, and then it isnt as effective as before.
That is just common sense, yes that does violate said clowns personal liberites, but when it comes down to it there is realy no way that security and personal freedoms can co mingle, technology makes it EASIER for them to exist (for those who are dumb and dont understand the technology) but they never can. IE walk thru x ray machines, simply because a machine is looking into your pockets is no better then a person doing the same. BUt somehow since its a machine its "ok".
You get my drift, salty is right, and if you ask me everyones rights should be violated equally, hell you should sign an "i will allow my rights to be violated so i can fly on said airplane" contract if you ask me. A bit of searching and frisking while annoying as hell and potentially embarssing (its no my swedish ***** pump baby!!) is still better then letting someone slip thru and kill hundreds if not thousands.
And as for profiling being effective, it is and it isnt, once your enemy knows your tactics he will shift, and then it isnt as effective as before.
07-14-2004, 04:41 PM
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I guess I should just move to Switzerland. Hell, its pretty, mountainous, has great skiing and mountain biking, plus, nobody hates them! Plus i can own that EVO IV of my dreams. 
07-14-2004, 07:21 PM
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Jeff bro, I agree with you. We've basically started s*** that we didn't really need to. That is unless Iraq did/does have WMD, which I'm starting to doubt a lot. However, they could have moved them to that other country (starts with S). So as you can see, I'm not really sure about the whole WMD thing, but I believe this war to be unneccessary and I believe we were safer before it started.
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