VAT in the US?
12-04-2008, 04:50 PM
#62
VIP Member
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: pompous douchebag
Posts: 9,351
Car Info: $200,000 sports car
Irrational X...Take this reply for what it is worth, but it seems you have already made up your mind about me...It does appears you are well educated (I applaud you for it and your efforts) in theory, ideology and statistics. I did the same thing back in college. However, reality versus theory/ideology are very different animals. Please go back and re-read my replies as well. I actually do discuss valid points related to the topics at hand (whether you choose to see them or not); however, I also try to bring up additional points that might need to be considered. It is called brainstorming; sometimes you get something right sometimes you do not. I personally can care less about theory and ideology that cannot be implemented or have a higher cost than actual benefit. The latter part is what I always focus on.
Furthermore, what is wrong with being a devil's advocate and encourage discussion? It is one way of debating; while potentially agreeing on the topic as a whole, you try to find various questions and discredit assumptions to bring forth as many potential arguments as possible. Once they are out one the open, you have opportunity to adsorb, digest and formulate an opinion. I am an introvert, where I try to get as much information possible out into the open (by whatever means necessary), think about it and later come up with my conclusions.
Unfortunately, the internet forums is also a very limited media for educated discussion as a lot of personality, feeling, intonation, timing and energy is taken out of the picture. I will admit that you were correct that on several of the posts I either read too much into the posts or jumped to a conclusion too soon. Oh well, I am human and that's what I also get for trying to reply at work during available moments.
Lastly, please read a good psychology or negotiating book. A valid response is never a personal attack or off-cuff judgment that puts a person on a defensive and close any potential for you to get your point across (irrelevant of how incapable you might think that person is). How do you know I am not doing anything of this on purpose to push the other side to see where their limit is because that's where you really know the person and their true colors?
I am sure this will fall upon deaf ears (ehe, blind eyes?) and will result in another personal, sarcastic, non-serious reply; but I thought I share this with you never the less.
Furthermore, what is wrong with being a devil's advocate and encourage discussion? It is one way of debating; while potentially agreeing on the topic as a whole, you try to find various questions and discredit assumptions to bring forth as many potential arguments as possible. Once they are out one the open, you have opportunity to adsorb, digest and formulate an opinion. I am an introvert, where I try to get as much information possible out into the open (by whatever means necessary), think about it and later come up with my conclusions.
Unfortunately, the internet forums is also a very limited media for educated discussion as a lot of personality, feeling, intonation, timing and energy is taken out of the picture. I will admit that you were correct that on several of the posts I either read too much into the posts or jumped to a conclusion too soon. Oh well, I am human and that's what I also get for trying to reply at work during available moments.
Lastly, please read a good psychology or negotiating book. A valid response is never a personal attack or off-cuff judgment that puts a person on a defensive and close any potential for you to get your point across (irrelevant of how incapable you might think that person is). How do you know I am not doing anything of this on purpose to push the other side to see where their limit is because that's where you really know the person and their true colors?
I am sure this will fall upon deaf ears (ehe, blind eyes?) and will result in another personal, sarcastic, non-serious reply; but I thought I share this with you never the less.
your.
time.
IBmomjoke.
12-04-2008, 06:43 PM
#66
plays well with others
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sac
Posts: 9,923
Car Info: your mother crazy
Originally Posted by LxJLthr
It does appears you are well educated (I applaud you for it and your efforts) in theory, ideology and statistics. I did the same thing back in college.
Originally Posted by LxJLthr
However, reality versus theory/ideology are very different animals.
so i agree with your assertion that ideology has typically has no bearing in reality, however, i would contest your assertion that a theory is not an accurate representation of reality.
Originally Posted by LxJLthr
Please go back and re-read my replies as well. I actually do discuss valid points related to the topics at hand (whether you choose to see them or not); however, I also try to bring up additional points that might need to be considered.
post 1:
allot of sensationalism but mostly valid, but you only use anecdotes that support your point of view. maybe you should discuss starting a business in japan? consider how impossible it already in is this country to run a successful business.
post 2:
an awful serious post for a response to a joke. you make valid points about lack of capital, high taxation, etc. however, you forget that this is a reality now, and indeed was an issue before the current fallout had even begun. (might be time to read my response, since i wasn't arguing with any other point aside from the 'middle America' comment)
post 3:
im with you up to the "If you have not realized this..." wiener waving. then i did a Piccard face palm. nothing you've said about VAT is incorrect, youre just talking like a pretentious ****.
post 4:
you write 4 paragraphs without waiting for an answer to your quandary. the point would not be that out 'boss' is paying a lower % in taxes v income, its that he would at least be paying something. the current structure of our tax system allows people with the means to pay basically nothing. my argument is not that he is paying to little, it that he is probably paying nothing currently and the most 'fair' way to do it is a flat sales tax like we ALREADY HAVE. so on his 2 million dollar home he pays 200,000. thats about 199,999 more dollars than he pays in taxes now.
post 5:
general consensus
post 6:
we learn your female friends have absolutely no fiscal sense
post 7:
you miss the idea boat. the bus wont get to me to work (as demonstrated using RTs own site). who cares if a car isn't essential to you? there's no sales tax on RT either so calm down. 'the logistics are impossible' statement just makes me giggle. nothing is impossible. we can map the genome of animals that died out millions of years ago but Prof. Lthr thinks we cant get people to work efficiently.
im convinced.
then you prove my point for me. thanks.
post 8:
ill answer in order.
1.)more protectionist than anything else.
2.)adjust whatever regulation is in place, we do it all the time.
3.)the government actually working on something? cant be worse than the job the do now.
free markets dying because "we know what people want?" that's ridiculous. peoples wants are always the same: more.
then you set yourself up for some fiscal facepwnage, then you adapt a GIJoe quote.
post 9:
you again fail to read and understand what i wrote. no sense rehashing it.
post 10:
crying
post 11:
spelling correction
post 12:
no need, im responding right now.
Originally Posted by LxJLthr
It is called brainstorming; sometimes you get something right sometimes you do not. I personally can care less about theory and ideology that cannot be implemented or have a higher cost than actual benefit. The latter part is what I always focus on.
Originally Posted by LxJLthr
Furthermore, what is wrong with being a devil's advocate and encourage discussion? It is one way of debating; while potentially agreeing on the topic as a whole, you try to find various questions and discredit assumptions to bring forth as many potential arguments as possible. Once they are out one the open, you have opportunity to adsorb, digest and formulate an opinion. I am an introvert, where I try to get as much information possible out into the open (by whatever means necessary), think about it and later come up with my conclusions.
Originally Posted by LxJLthr
Lastly, please read a good psychology or negotiating book.
Originally Posted by LxJLthr
A valid response is never a personal attack or off-cuff judgment that puts a person on a defensive and close any potential for you to get your point across (irrelevant of how incapable you might think that person is).
seriously relax this is the internet.
Originally Posted by LxJLthr
How do you know I am not doing anything of this on purpose to push the other side to see where their limit is because that's where you really know the person and their true colors?
you cant. so lets cut the crap eh?
Originally Posted by LxJLthr
I am sure this will fall upon deaf ears (ehe, blind eyes?) and will result in another personal, sarcastic, non-serious reply; but I thought I share this with you never the less.
now that all your windbaggery is out, lets hear your plan?
me:
cut income tax to 0%, make a national sales tax.
you:
?????????????????????????????????????????
12-04-2008, 08:44 PM
#67
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In Mother Russia...
Posts: 4,024
Car Info: ...zeh car drives you!
I appreciate the detailed response. I honestly did not expect it; but thank you for taking the time to put it together. As you have mentioned previously, I will take my time to read through everything, consider and understand everything said, make sure nothing is misunderstand and get back to you later.
At the end of the day, this is politics...various people will have different opinions, agendas, statistics and beliefs. I rather be proven wrong/pwned/whatever and learn than keep my mouth shut and remain wrong forever. This thread was not the best representation of my knowledge and reasoning, but those would be just excuses.
At the end of the day, this is politics...various people will have different opinions, agendas, statistics and beliefs. I rather be proven wrong/pwned/whatever and learn than keep my mouth shut and remain wrong forever. This thread was not the best representation of my knowledge and reasoning, but those would be just excuses.
12-08-2008, 03:46 PM
#70
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In Mother Russia...
Posts: 4,024
Car Info: ...zeh car drives you!
Oh man, was I having a bad week 
I guess I was stressed out to the point where it affected me more than I thought and this was a venting point 
So much for golden rule of not writing when you don't have your thoughts completely straight...Oh well, moving along with life…but I though I address some points…
Sweet. But than I guess that's why you resorted to calling me names and making presumptions about me and my background.
Whatever the case, I like to give credit wherever it is due.
No, I do not misunderstand the definition of theory. According to Webster dictionary, theory can be defined as…
1: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
2: abstract thought or speculation
3: the general or abstract principles
4 a: a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action b: an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances
…and ideology can be defined as…
1: visionary theorizing
2 a: a systematic body of concepts b: a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture c: the integrated assertions, theories
Hmmm...funny enough you sound like most of my science major friends. I cannot disagree with your statement, but I used the terms in the definition/context highlighted (which does not present any issues that you tried pointing out). Theory is not always rooted in good data and still needs to make deductions/assumptions about reality. In addition, ideology does not necessarily mean no evidence at all either; you sort of need it to establish "systematic body of concepts". So...theory can be just as abstract (no hard evidence) as ideology and have as little bearing on reality; just as ideology can be as factually rooted as theory. It is all relative. If you ask me, semantics of ideology vs. theory is a never ending topic and (for me) constant replication is the only way to know what the reality is for sure.
The reply probably was a little winded and off tangent (unfortunate commonality for all of them that day)...but it is a valid point being concerned how a new taxation system affects the opportunistic and risk taking business nature that has defined US.
My evidence was from personal experience and reading as well. Also, I did not say anything about running a business, only starting it. Please read carefully what I write as well. I actually have been involved with friends trying to open import/export businesses to/from Russia, India and China (no Japan unfortunately). In many parts of those countries you need a ton of rubber stamping, years of waiting and numerous fees and bribes to open a business legitimately. However, it does not take that much to get a legal certificate of incorporation anywhere in US and start running your own operation.
Oh well, no one is perfect. And what’s a Piccard face palm? Enlighten me please as I choose to spend my time on more valuable activities than decade old TV reruns.
Hmmm, now who is being anecdotal, generalizing or presumptive.? What tax system structure evidence do you have that all well off people “probably pay nothing”? If I wanted to be judgmental, it would sound to me like you cannot afford anything yourself and complaining about people that can. As far as not paying tax (and fees) on real estate; please look up how buyer/seller real estate closing processes work as well as property assessments and taxation ones. In additional luxury good taxation is, as far as I know, almost impossible to circumvent in US (such as expensive **** properties and cars). The only way I know of not paying taxes or fees for something, is being able to offset or deduct them against other activity or losses you may have somewhere else. In the end you may owe less tax directly to the government (which knows jack ish what to do with it), but it still will mean you are putting a ton of money into the system to get that benefit (meaning others will pay tax). However, if you know of any "free lunch" avoidance techniques please share them 
Sweet
Yeah, they do not, nothing I can do about that. Doesn't prevent me from giving them crap about it and knowing I will always have some job security.
No, you miss the point. And who cares if the car is essential to you (just like it is not essential to me)? And the bus will get you to the location that you need, but apparently not in a convenient matter (which is a totally different topic). What if will get thousands of other people to work conveniently? May be there are no tax on RT under current system, but who is to say that will not change? A little presumptuous are we not about all these things in this example? As I have stated, many things can be rationalized as being essential based on benefits to different groups of people other than yourself
Hmmm...you are giving me a scientific example again...interesting. Let me elaborate; impossible to me means when the implementation and transitional cost of something far outweigh any long term benefits, which would not be effective, efficient or productive. I apologize for any misunderstanding there...and yes...sometimes we cannot get people to work effectively. I have to deal with those situations every day at work during troublesome restructurings, workouts and mergers because of that exact fact.
I took note of all your points, but I think enough has already been said. I will agree being way too general and using terminology very liberally...
Being a little vague and general are we not? What fiscal pwnage you referring to? There are always worst case scenarios. What GI Joe quotes; please stop looking at your toy collection.
Again, I took note of everything said...moving on with life…
You have not been exactly Mr. straight-and-narrow-factual-only-statements-with-no-assumptions yourself either. This is politics; people have different points of view (validated or not) that you will not agree with. Deal with it. If you cannot, don’t discuss them.
Again, you should look into philosophy and/or psychology if you want to continue being well read. And yeah, I guess I kinda did thread jack opps, my bad 
I do not care for your anatomical fetishes. As stated, I guess you are not as well read as you state in the beginning.
See second part of my statement above
Venting causes relaxation, therefore, I was very much relaxed afterward. 
Yeah, you are right I can’t. And there was a point for me, but probably no one else. And what’s your personal preference of crap cutting? My favorite is a big bucket of C4.
Meh, everyone needs those moments
Oh yeah, and did it ever feel good 
…I like the current progressive taxation system, but it needs serious reform. I am also not convinces the transitional costs of moving to a new system would not outweigh any potential benefits.
I guess I was stressed out to the point where it affected me more than I thought and this was a venting point So much for golden rule of not writing when you don't have your thoughts completely straight...Oh well, moving along with life…but I though I address some points…Sweet. But than I guess that's why you resorted to calling me names and making presumptions about me and my background.
wrong on all fronts. if i am anything, it is well read.
i think you misunderstand the definitions of theory and ideology. a theory is backed by hard evidence whereas ideology is a set of beliefs that need no evidence at all.
so i agree with your assertion that ideology has typically has no bearing in reality, however, i would contest your assertion that a theory is not an accurate representation of reality.
so i agree with your assertion that ideology has typically has no bearing in reality, however, i would contest your assertion that a theory is not an accurate representation of reality.
1: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
2: abstract thought or speculation
3: the general or abstract principles
4 a: a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action b: an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances
…and ideology can be defined as…
1: visionary theorizing
2 a: a systematic body of concepts b: a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture c: the integrated assertions, theories
Hmmm...funny enough you sound like most of my science major friends. I cannot disagree with your statement, but I used the terms in the definition/context highlighted (which does not present any issues that you tried pointing out). Theory is not always rooted in good data and still needs to make deductions/assumptions about reality. In addition, ideology does not necessarily mean no evidence at all either; you sort of need it to establish "systematic body of concepts". So...theory can be just as abstract (no hard evidence) as ideology and have as little bearing on reality; just as ideology can be as factually rooted as theory. It is all relative. If you ask me, semantics of ideology vs. theory is a never ending topic and (for me) constant replication is the only way to know what the reality is for sure.
ok
post 1:
allot of sensationalism but mostly valid, but you only use anecdotes that support your point of view. maybe you should discuss starting a business in japan? consider how impossible it already in is this country to run a successful business.
post 1:
allot of sensationalism but mostly valid, but you only use anecdotes that support your point of view. maybe you should discuss starting a business in japan? consider how impossible it already in is this country to run a successful business.
My evidence was from personal experience and reading as well. Also, I did not say anything about running a business, only starting it. Please read carefully what I write as well. I actually have been involved with friends trying to open import/export businesses to/from Russia, India and China (no Japan unfortunately). In many parts of those countries you need a ton of rubber stamping, years of waiting and numerous fees and bribes to open a business legitimately. However, it does not take that much to get a legal certificate of incorporation anywhere in US and start running your own operation.
post 3:
im with you up to the "If you have not realized this..." wiener waving. then i did a Piccard face palm. nothing you've said about VAT is incorrect, youre just talking like a pretentious ****.
im with you up to the "If you have not realized this..." wiener waving. then i did a Piccard face palm. nothing you've said about VAT is incorrect, youre just talking like a pretentious ****.
post 4:
you write 4 paragraphs without waiting for an answer to your quandary. the point would not be that out 'boss' is paying a lower % in taxes v income, its that he would at least be paying something. the current structure of our tax system allows people with the means to pay basically nothing. my argument is not that he is paying to little, it that he is probably paying nothing currently and the most 'fair' way to do it is a flat sales tax like we ALREADY HAVE. so on his 2 million dollar home he pays 200,000. thats about 199,999 more dollars than he pays in taxes now. .
you write 4 paragraphs without waiting for an answer to your quandary. the point would not be that out 'boss' is paying a lower % in taxes v income, its that he would at least be paying something. the current structure of our tax system allows people with the means to pay basically nothing. my argument is not that he is paying to little, it that he is probably paying nothing currently and the most 'fair' way to do it is a flat sales tax like we ALREADY HAVE. so on his 2 million dollar home he pays 200,000. thats about 199,999 more dollars than he pays in taxes now.
.
post 5:
general consensus
general consensus
post 6:
we learn your female friends have absolutely no fiscal sense
we learn your female friends have absolutely no fiscal sense
post 7:
you miss the idea boat. the bus wont get to me to work (as demonstrated using RTs own site). who cares if a car isn't essential to you? there's no sales tax on RT either so calm down. 'the logistics are impossible' statement just makes me giggle. nothing is impossible. we can map the genome of animals that died out millions of years ago but Prof. Lthr thinks we cant get people to work efficiently.
you miss the idea boat. the bus wont get to me to work (as demonstrated using RTs own site). who cares if a car isn't essential to you? there's no sales tax on RT either so calm down. 'the logistics are impossible' statement just makes me giggle. nothing is impossible. we can map the genome of animals that died out millions of years ago but Prof. Lthr thinks we cant get people to work efficiently.
Hmmm...you are giving me a scientific example again...interesting. Let me elaborate; impossible to me means when the implementation and transitional cost of something far outweigh any long term benefits, which would not be effective, efficient or productive. I apologize for any misunderstanding there...and yes...sometimes we cannot get people to work effectively. I have to deal with those situations every day at work during troublesome restructurings, workouts and mergers because of that exact fact.
im convinced.
then you prove my point for me. thanks.
post 8:
ill answer in order.
1.)more protectionist than anything else.
2.)adjust whatever regulation is in place, we do it all the time.
3.)the government actually working on something? cant be worse than the job the do now.
free markets dying because "we know what people want?" that's ridiculous. peoples wants are always the same: more.
then you prove my point for me. thanks.
post 8:
ill answer in order.
1.)more protectionist than anything else.
2.)adjust whatever regulation is in place, we do it all the time.
3.)the government actually working on something? cant be worse than the job the do now.
free markets dying because "we know what people want?" that's ridiculous. peoples wants are always the same: more.
then you set yourself up for some fiscal facepwnage, then you adapt a GIJoe quote.
post 9:
you again fail to read and understand what i wrote. no sense rehashing it.
post 10:
crying
post 11:
spelling correction
post 12:
no need, im responding right now.
you again fail to read and understand what i wrote. no sense rehashing it.
post 10:
crying
post 11:
spelling correction
post 12:
no need, im responding right now.
you still have yet to provide any evidence that my 'theoretic ideology' is any worse than what we have now, so why not just drop the dog and pony show.
might want to leave the philosophy to whitehead, just a suggestion. oh and BTW, thread jack.
opps, my bad
no thanks i have *****. .
oops. i should have finished reading this statement. wait, i did. then i ignored it.
seriously relax this is the internet.
why would you care what our 'true colors' are. this whole rant you've produced in the waning posts of this thread, aside from being completely off topic, is ****ing pointless. what makes you think i'm not 'pushing the other side' to see their 'true colors' as well?
you cant. so lets cut the crap eh?
you cant. so lets cut the crap eh?
now that all your windbaggery is out, lets hear your plan?
me:
cut income tax to 0%, make a national sales tax.
me:
cut income tax to 0%, make a national sales tax.
…I like the current progressive taxation system, but it needs serious reform. I am also not convinces the transitional costs of moving to a new system would not outweigh any potential benefits.
Last edited by LxJLthr; 12-08-2008 at 03:49 PM.
12-09-2008, 12:24 AM
#73
plays well with others
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sac
Posts: 9,923
Car Info: your mother crazy
you're gay. no one likes you. get the **** out. your posts are as worthless as stupidchicken's 
unfortunately i don't have time to replay to the rest of this tonight, so im just going to start with this: "that's your theory." the only reason for the second definition of Theory being included is smarmy ****s who like saying "well that's your theory." these are the people who bastardize our language. websters has added vuh-jay-jay as a word for ****s sakes, you mind as well just link to urban dictionary its the same thing.
try Oxford:
theory • noun (pl. theories)
1 a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
2 an idea accounting for or justifying something.
3 a set of principles on which an activity is based.
that's a pretty big ****ing difference in definition. if you really want to boil this down to semantics we can, but you will not win. so you respond to responses of responses trying to eek out some kind of ideological victory against your internet oppressor? give me a ****ing break.
you answer an entire page of dialogue with a 2 sentence plan for taxation thats primary fix is "it needs reform."
good day sir, banned from the internet. ill take time to respond to the various points in your post i find comedic whilst defending the reputation of GIjoe (you did steal his catchphrase...)
you cant challenge me to respond on an intelligent level then refuse to do so yourself.
i await your comprehensive plan for tax reform
1: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
2: abstract thought or speculation
3: the general or abstract principles
4 a: a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action b: an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances
…and ideology can be defined as…
1: visionary theorizing
2 a: a systematic body of concepts b: a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture c: the integrated assertions, theories
Hmmm...funny enough you sound like most of my science major friends. I cannot disagree with your statement, but I used the terms in the definition/context highlighted (which does not present any issues that you tried pointing out). Theory is not always rooted in good data and still needs to make deductions/assumptions about reality.
2: abstract thought or speculation
3: the general or abstract principles
4 a: a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action b: an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances
…and ideology can be defined as…
1: visionary theorizing
2 a: a systematic body of concepts b: a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture c: the integrated assertions, theories
Hmmm...funny enough you sound like most of my science major friends. I cannot disagree with your statement, but I used the terms in the definition/context highlighted (which does not present any issues that you tried pointing out). Theory is not always rooted in good data and still needs to make deductions/assumptions about reality.
try Oxford:
theory • noun (pl. theories)
1 a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
2 an idea accounting for or justifying something.
3 a set of principles on which an activity is based.
that's a pretty big ****ing difference in definition. if you really want to boil this down to semantics we can, but you will not win. so you respond to responses of responses trying to eek out some kind of ideological victory against your internet oppressor? give me a ****ing break.
you answer an entire page of dialogue with a 2 sentence plan for taxation thats primary fix is "it needs reform."
good day sir, banned from the internet. ill take time to respond to the various points in your post i find comedic whilst defending the reputation of GIjoe (you did steal his catchphrase...)
you cant challenge me to respond on an intelligent level then refuse to do so yourself.
i await your comprehensive plan for tax reform
12-09-2008, 08:08 AM
#75
Old School
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Union City
Posts: 14,983
Car Info: '99 RBP GM6
Make a poll, lets see if even one person likes me. if you are correct, I swear, seriously, I will delete my account and never post on I-club ever again. I'm dead serious, just try it, and see how right you are.