VAT in the US?
#18
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Yes, but at what price? Did you read the rest of the quote and article? So they want to bring financial stability by taxing everyone even more, continue wasteful spending, and in the process stun growth of the economy and entrepreneurship because businesses probably will not have enough free cash flow to reinvest in growth of their operations? They refuse to address the current problems within the system and just throw more money at it? Is it going to be stable because no one will want to do anything [given the facts of the article are correct] because the costs are going to start outweighing the benefits? You are right, that does not sound terrible at all.
I will not support any new tax scheme until some sort of plan to rethink many of the current spending and financial policies. For example, enough has already been said about the bail out...they keep throwing money at the troubled companies yet they still remain troubled and economy is still going down. Oh wait! Nothing is wrong with the companies or our plan simply because we have not thrown enough money in it and screwed the taxpayers in the process! Brilliant!
I will not support any new tax scheme until some sort of plan to rethink many of the current spending and financial policies. For example, enough has already been said about the bail out...they keep throwing money at the troubled companies yet they still remain troubled and economy is still going down. Oh wait! Nothing is wrong with the companies or our plan simply because we have not thrown enough money in it and screwed the taxpayers in the process! Brilliant!
Last edited by LxJLthr; 12-03-2008 at 11:56 PM.
#19
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We need to spend less...
but more importantly we need to simply taxing, close ALL loopholes (cause businesses and rich people use them pay less or none at all)... and we need to ENFORCE accountability here. So much money is lost,and gone, and just written off in oblivion. Just not right. We need serious reform, and we need in a lot of places
but more importantly we need to simply taxing, close ALL loopholes (cause businesses and rich people use them pay less or none at all)... and we need to ENFORCE accountability here. So much money is lost,and gone, and just written off in oblivion. Just not right. We need serious reform, and we need in a lot of places
#21
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Yes, but at what price? Did you read the rest of the quote and article? So they want to bring financial stability by taxing everyone even more, continue wasteful spending, and in the process stun growth of the economy and entrepreneurship because businesses probably will not have enough free cash flow to reinvest in growth of their operations? They refuse to address the current problems within the system and just throw more money at it? Is it going to be stable because no one will want to do anything [given the facts of the article are correct] because the costs are going to start outweighing the benefits? You are right, that does not sound terrible at all.
I will not support any new tax scheme until some sort of plan to rethink many of the current spending and financial policies. For example, enough has already been said about the bail out...they keep throwing money at the troubled companies yet they still remain troubled and economy is still going down. Oh wait! Nothing is wrong with the companies or our plan simply because we have not thrown enough money in it and screwed the taxpayers in the process! Brilliant!
I will not support any new tax scheme until some sort of plan to rethink many of the current spending and financial policies. For example, enough has already been said about the bail out...they keep throwing money at the troubled companies yet they still remain troubled and economy is still going down. Oh wait! Nothing is wrong with the companies or our plan simply because we have not thrown enough money in it and screwed the taxpayers in the process! Brilliant!
lets just say for giggles that my tax burden is currently 30% of my income. i drive my car to work everyday about 60 miles round trip. should i pay more to maintain the roads than someone who walks to work? **** yes i should.
lets expand further:
you and i both make 100k a year. we have completely identical lifestyles, houses, and vehicles, with the only difference being that that you walk or bike to work and use the car for longer trips or errands and i drive everywhere.
Lets say that of that 100k you are able to save 50k a year. Due to my increased expenditures on gas, maintenance, etc I am only able to put away 40k a year.
Currently the amount you and I pay in taxes would be nearly identical despite the fact that I cost society significantly more in terms of pollution and health costs since you, by walking, are presumably more healthy than I am and don’t cost the gov. money in road maintenance.
I don’t think that’s fair to you.
Look, tax revenue will have to go up. It absolutely will, in order to pay off all this bull****. So why not put the burden on those who spent us into this mess instead of those who actually maintained fiscal responsibility?
And yet they think they can run the big 3 better than private enterprise....
#22
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If you read my first post, I have already stated that I understand taxes are important and necessary and that I do not mind paying my fair share. I am in full agreement with you there. However, the execution and logistics of it is where I am having problem. I will be repeating myself from other posts I made here before, but there are several issues at play here...
So, what if I am one of those people who actually did live within my means by having weekly budgets, running financial models to predict my future expenses and free cash flow, only using their cash/debit cards and only relying on the credit cards in a pinch? This means I did not do anything to contribute to this mess; and according to your statement does this mean I get a free pass and not have to pay no taxes? I highly doubt it...
According to the IRS, only 9% of all taxpayers make up my income bracket, yet that group pays a whopping 20% of all taxes...and it will only go up if the current income tax system remains. Fine, I understand we need to go through this, but I do not see the point if it will mean same frivolous government policies that got us here into the first place; wars we didn't need, educational cuts from a system that's already a laughing stock of the world, antiquated public aid system with no incentives to leave and bail outs to companies that do not deserve them to name a few prominent topics...Until there is reform about WHERE that money is going I will continue to have issues.
If you have not realized this, but VAT is a hidden regressive tax, where the rate decreases as the amount subject to taxation increases and is embedded into the price of goods. Therefore, it applies a greater burden, relative to resources, on lower and middle-income households as they spend a greater proportion of their incomes on consumption than higher-income households.
VAT can be applied on many levels, everything from individual payroll taxes, consumer goods or system wide. The article does not discuss every level of possible impact, which would be another big issue for me. What would prevent wealthy individuals and companies from [again] lobbying from having certain areas not taxed allowing for loop holes? And since it is a hidden tax, it would be that much harder to figure out who is getting properly tax. How is that fair to me?
According to the IRS, only 9% of all taxpayers make up my income bracket, yet that group pays a whopping 20% of all taxes...and it will only go up if the current income tax system remains. Fine, I understand we need to go through this, but I do not see the point if it will mean same frivolous government policies that got us here into the first place; wars we didn't need, educational cuts from a system that's already a laughing stock of the world, antiquated public aid system with no incentives to leave and bail outs to companies that do not deserve them to name a few prominent topics...Until there is reform about WHERE that money is going I will continue to have issues.
VAT can be applied on many levels, everything from individual payroll taxes, consumer goods or system wide. The article does not discuss every level of possible impact, which would be another big issue for me. What would prevent wealthy individuals and companies from [again] lobbying from having certain areas not taxed allowing for loop holes? And since it is a hidden tax, it would be that much harder to figure out who is getting properly tax. How is that fair to me?
Last edited by LxJLthr; 12-04-2008 at 10:58 AM.
#23
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you and i both make 100k a year. we have completely identical lifestyles, houses, and vehicles, with the only difference being that that you walk or bike to work and use the car for longer trips or errands and i drive everywhere.
Lets say that of that 100k you are able to save 50k a year. Due to my increased expenditures on gas, maintenance, etc I am only able to put away 40k a year.
Currently the amount you and I pay in taxes would be nearly identical despite the fact that I cost society significantly more in terms of pollution and health costs since you, by walking, are presumably more healthy than I am and don’t cost the gov. money in road maintenance.
Lets say that of that 100k you are able to save 50k a year. Due to my increased expenditures on gas, maintenance, etc I am only able to put away 40k a year.
Currently the amount you and I pay in taxes would be nearly identical despite the fact that I cost society significantly more in terms of pollution and health costs since you, by walking, are presumably more healthy than I am and don’t cost the gov. money in road maintenance.
However, the issue is that not everything in US makes the same amount of money and not everything else is equal. To elaborate further...
Say you and I make $100,000 and our boss makes $1,000,000. To keep things fair, it would mean that our boss would have to spend 10x more on everything in his life to keep taxes paid proportionate and fair. Therefore, if the VAT rate is 10% and we drive $30,000 STis, we would be paying $3,000 in tax...or...3% of our annual income. To keep things fair, our boss would have to drive a $300,000 Ferrari to pay $30,000 at 10%...or...the same 3% of his annual income. I highly doubt that will be the case; he will most likely have a $100,000 BMW which in the end will burden him 1%...That is the meaning of lower and middle-income households spending a greater proportion of their incomes on consumption than higher-income households.
In the progressive income tax system the tax rate would increase as the amount subject to taxation increases to keep things level and fair to prevent the above mentioned disproportion from occurring. To me personally it it a simple concept, if you are able to take advantage of the opportunities given to you and become successful, pay your fair share back in allowing other people to have the same opportunities. The more people that are able to take advantage the more will more up and less burden will be placed on you in the process. However, people become greedy and corrupted by money and refuse to share the wealth and opportunities and create barriers of entry for others...and this concept of course only works if the system wisely diverts money back into the system, which has been the root cause of the problem for the longest time. Therefore, getting back to my point, fix how that money is spent before asking for more.
Last edited by LxJLthr; 12-04-2008 at 11:26 AM.
#24
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spend less, save more. americans aren't smart enough to do that on their own apparently.
#25
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If you have not realized this, but VAT is a hidden regressive tax, where the rate decreases as the amount subject to taxation increases and is embedded into the price of goods. Therefore, it applies a greater burden, relative to resources, on lower and middle-income households as they spend a greater proportion of their incomes on consumption than higher-income households.
we cant fix the issues with tax avoidance that the ultra-rich perform anyway so income tax reform is a moot point. taxing non-essential goods and services instead of stated income is the best way to ad some semblance of fairness to our tax system.
#26
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Oh okay...good...I got worried for a second. Unfortunately, there are a lot of good ideas out there that I agree on principal. Their execution, logistics and reality is a completely different matter. Hey, communism works on paper, but we all know how that concept turned out.
#27
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thats why i never once said "VAT" i said user based fees. toll roads, flat sales tax, or even one that scales higher based on price (but im not that much of a socialist).
we cant fix the issues with tax avoidance that the ultra-rich perform anyway so income tax reform is a moot point. taxing non-essential goods and services instead of stated income is the best way to ad some semblance of fairness to our tax system.
we cant fix the issues with tax avoidance that the ultra-rich perform anyway so income tax reform is a moot point. taxing non-essential goods and services instead of stated income is the best way to ad some semblance of fairness to our tax system.
#28
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i drive to work. oil changes are an essential service, so dont tax it. having a pool installed at my house is a luxury, so tax it. buying an M6 is a luxury and should be taxed accordingly when a civic can get me to work just as well.
also with user based taxes you have the ability to do a certain amount of price control and mitigate the impact of short term rises in price. Imagine if 10 years ago we started ramping up the gas tax so that 2 years ago gas was already $4. as the price of oil increased the rate of tax could be decreased to maintain stability.
now, thats to to say im in favor of those sorts of market interference, i just like to use the gas example since its a touchy subject.
the point is there are much better ways to generate revenue than income taxes.
#29
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Oh okay...good...I got worried for a second. Unfortunately, there are a lot of good ideas out there that I agree on principal. Their execution, logistics and reality is a completely different matter. Hey, communism works on paper, but we all know how that concept turned out.
#30
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ill elaborate.
i drive to work. oil changes are an essential service, so dont tax it. having a pool installed at my house is a luxury, so tax it. buying an M6 is a luxury and should be taxed accordingly when a civic can get me to work just as well.
also with user based taxes you have the ability to do a certain amount of price control and mitigate the impact of short term rises in price. Imagine if 10 years ago we started ramping up the gas tax so that 2 years ago gas was already $4. as the price of oil increased the rate of tax could be decreased to maintain stability.
now, thats to to say im in favor of those sorts of market interference, i just like to use the gas example since its a touchy subject.
the point is there are much better ways to generate revenue than income taxes.
i drive to work. oil changes are an essential service, so dont tax it. having a pool installed at my house is a luxury, so tax it. buying an M6 is a luxury and should be taxed accordingly when a civic can get me to work just as well.
also with user based taxes you have the ability to do a certain amount of price control and mitigate the impact of short term rises in price. Imagine if 10 years ago we started ramping up the gas tax so that 2 years ago gas was already $4. as the price of oil increased the rate of tax could be decreased to maintain stability.
now, thats to to say im in favor of those sorts of market interference, i just like to use the gas example since its a touchy subject.
the point is there are much better ways to generate revenue than income taxes.