The Tibet issue
There's an excellent article on Slate.com about this, from which I quote:
"The Nuremburg laws were in force, German troops had marched into the Rhineland, Dachau was full of prisoners, but the world cheered athletes in Berlin. As a result, many people, both in and out of Germany, reckoned that everything was just fine, and Hitler could be tolerated a bit longer."
How can you say it's 'just about the sports and athletes'? In the NBA, NFL, sure whatever. But this is the world stage, and China's human rights abuses in Tibet, Darfur and Burma deserve a total worldwide boycott. No, the US is certainly no saint, and I would readily protest an Olympics held in DC this summer, but to grant China a validation of its policies on this scale is absurd. To give them an even larger mouthpiece from which to spew state-controlled PRC media propaganda (see wimpreza's posts), even more so.
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So, instead of ignoring them, or finding some sort of middle ground, the orders were to arrest and or kill. Not only were the students and laborers in the protest arrested or killed, but anyone inside the Chinese government who admitted to sympathizing with the protesters. And when the people ran for their lives after the initial gun fire, there were chased down by soldiers and shot. That's unsatisfactory.
What made it worse is that the government (not sure who made the actual speech) announced that it was a reactive counter-revolutionary rebellion. As if that's an excuse to gun down thousands of people, the most dangerous of which were armed with no more than bricks. Unarmed protesters vs 40,000 armed troops and tanks. Does that sound a bit excessive to anyone?
Historically, leaders that give those kinds of orders are killed by their own citizens.
As far as Tibet, China's anti-budist policies in the region are enough to be pissed at what's going on. But a lot of this hatred goes back 60 years when the Red army (much hated by westerners at the time) basically made Tibet's own army of 5,000 concede. China then pressured Tibet into signing the 17 article agreement which essentially let China implement whatever policies they wanted, which included anti-religious agendas. This has been going on for centuries.
It comes down to China wanting Tibet under it's government and Tibet wanting to maintain it's independence and carry on it's previous relationship with China. Tibet does not want to be subordinate to China and their position is widely supported by other parts of the world.
Not everyone who protests is a hippie, and 99% of protesters are as dumb as some people like to make them out to be.
What made it worse is that the government (not sure who made the actual speech) announced that it was a reactive counter-revolutionary rebellion. As if that's an excuse to gun down thousands of people, the most dangerous of which were armed with no more than bricks. Unarmed protesters vs 40,000 armed troops and tanks. Does that sound a bit excessive to anyone?
Historically, leaders that give those kinds of orders are killed by their own citizens.
As far as Tibet, China's anti-budist policies in the region are enough to be pissed at what's going on. But a lot of this hatred goes back 60 years when the Red army (much hated by westerners at the time) basically made Tibet's own army of 5,000 concede. China then pressured Tibet into signing the 17 article agreement which essentially let China implement whatever policies they wanted, which included anti-religious agendas. This has been going on for centuries.
It comes down to China wanting Tibet under it's government and Tibet wanting to maintain it's independence and carry on it's previous relationship with China. Tibet does not want to be subordinate to China and their position is widely supported by other parts of the world.
Not everyone who protests is a hippie, and 99% of protesters are as dumb as some people like to make them out to be.
people can protest or even start a war, but China will not let go of Tibet. Tibet has been part of China over 1000s of years. Anti-religion? There are so many different religion in China. 56 different ethnicities all live in one country, other western nation does not understand that.
the best thing to do is GO TO China, and see how people live there. MOST of the people enjoy living in China, and they are happy that their government is moving forward and getting better. Western countries should not involve in the issue, China's problem should handled in China by Chinese people, not with outside force.
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how can Tibet maintain independence when Tibet has ALWAYS been part of CHINA???? that do not make sense. Tibet is part of China, and it will always be. Chinese government will not let Tibet be a independent country, no matter what the western countries say or do.
people can protest or even start a war, but China will not let go of Tibet. Tibet has been part of China over 1000s of years. Anti-religion? There are so many different religion in China. 56 different ethnicities all live in one country, other western nation does not understand that.
the best thing to do is GO TO China, and see how people live there. MOST of the people enjoy living in China, and they are happy that their government is moving forward and getting better. Western countries should not involve in the issue, China's problem should handled in China by Chinese people, not with outside force.
people can protest or even start a war, but China will not let go of Tibet. Tibet has been part of China over 1000s of years. Anti-religion? There are so many different religion in China. 56 different ethnicities all live in one country, other western nation does not understand that.
the best thing to do is GO TO China, and see how people live there. MOST of the people enjoy living in China, and they are happy that their government is moving forward and getting better. Western countries should not involve in the issue, China's problem should handled in China by Chinese people, not with outside force.
I don't care if Chinese citizens are happy, I don't have much of an opinion of China itself. But there's no denying the China has continuously bullied Tibet and forcing Chinese policy on them. Tibet doesn't think they are Chinese, but China does, this is no secret to anyone actually interested in the subject. Just because I am an outsider and do not live in China does not mean I am oblivious to what the situation is.
Here's a link of a bunch of "happy" people in Tibet having a great time talking to Chinese police.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA2U8..._on_tibet.html
And yes, it is no secret that the Chinese government does impose anti-Buddhist policies in Tibet. Even to the point of torturing nuns and monks under the authority of China.
http://www.speroforum.com/site/artic...Tibet+by+China
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3612661.ece
What's disturbing is that throughout this thread you have openly supported the decision of the massacre (and it was nothing short of a massacre) in Tian An Min Square and that you believe that Tibet is happy with China's control over the region. Did you think that all of the people with opposing views were just a bunch of bleeding heart liberals that are just making a big deal out of nothing?
I don't appreciate being told that I have no idea what's going on because I don't live in China. That's no excuse to go around saying that people should ignore it and mind their own business. American's should be especially sympathetic to Tibet since we have been on both sides of the table. America was part of Brittan until we decided we had enough of their abusive policies. And we also walked all over native Americans and Mexican on our way to the west coast claiming "manifest destiny".
Your beliefs are what they are, that's your right to have. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you need to change your mind. But I have to say that you are coming across as someone who has heard a little too much Chinese propaganda.
Edit: For anyone who may be trying to find unbiased information about Tibet, it's very difficult. Facts are mixed in with very subjective opinions from both sides of the fence. The more you read the more it looks like the West and China are trying to write their own versions of history. But from what I've concluded is that Since China has "regained" control over the Tibetan region, they have improved the the way of life for Tibetan people but (and here's where I am opposed) China has also limited the Tibetan practices of Buddhism a great deal.
Last edited by Superglue WRX; Apr 25, 2008 at 02:51 PM.
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How can you say it's 'just about the sports and athletes'? In the NBA, NFL, sure whatever. But this is the world stage, and China's human rights abuses in Tibet, Darfur and Burma deserve a total worldwide boycott. No, the US is certainly no saint, and I would readily protest an Olympics held in DC this summer, but to grant China a validation of its policies on this scale is absurd. To give them an even larger mouthpiece from which to spew state-controlled PRC media propaganda (see wimpreza's posts), even more so.
My point is that if the world can find no way other than a sporting event to change the situation in Tibet the situation does not deserve change regardless of circumstance. The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. If people aren't willing to make an honest effort it truly isn't worth it.
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