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Old Jul 27, 2007 | 07:49 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by MVWRX
Never.
Noone.


Like I said, it's simple.
It's not simple.
Limited resources = limited services.
Limited services = some one dies.

Who gets the life saving operation?
Life long smoker w/ lung cancer or my non smoking mom w/ lung cancer?

Who gets the liver?
A has been hard core drunk 50something w/ cirrhosis or me, who got hepatitis as a kid?

So, who dies?
The non helmet wearing Hell's Angels tough guy that rides high as a kite or my daughter that he ran over?

While it's easy to wave the magic health care wand, it's not so easy to to actually cover everyone.

And frankly, not everyone should be saved.
Old Jul 27, 2007 | 07:49 AM
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BTW, I assume you support a woman's "right" to abortion?
Old Jul 27, 2007 | 10:24 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by Paul@dbtuned
It's not simple.
Limited resources = limited services.
Limited services = some one dies.

Who gets the life saving operation?
Life long smoker w/ lung cancer or my non smoking mom w/ lung cancer?

Who gets the liver?
A has been hard core drunk 50something w/ cirrhosis or me, who got hepatitis as a kid?

So, who dies?
The non helmet wearing Hell's Angels tough guy that rides high as a kite or my daughter that he ran over?

While it's easy to wave the magic health care wand, it's not so easy to to actually cover everyone.

And frankly, not everyone should be saved.
Good points.
Old Jul 27, 2007 | 10:52 AM
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The life saving opperation? Both get it. There is no limit to the number of surgeries a country can perform if they use the proper system. The issue of transplant lists would be exactly the same as it is now, we already deal with limited donor supplies. And a motorcycle/ped accident? Treat them both. Why wouldn't we be able to? Countries that use socialized health care systems don't have to make those choices, why would we be different? They just treat whoever needs treatment.
Old Jul 27, 2007 | 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul@dbtuned
BTW, I assume you support a woman's "right" to abortion?

I guess you'll have to explain to me how that's relevant, but yes I am pro choice.
Old Jul 27, 2007 | 11:52 AM
  #111  
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Save/treat everyone that needs it includes the unborn.
If you are willing to make an exception in treating unborn human beings, why not make an exception for illegals, welfare folks, etc?

Just an idea.
Old Jul 27, 2007 | 11:54 AM
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Well, this gets back to the argument of when a fetus is a live human...I don't want to rehash that argument. Illegals and welfare folks are definitly live humans though...
Old Jul 27, 2007 | 02:57 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by Paul@dbtuned
It's not simple.
Limited resources = limited services.
Limited services = some one dies.

Who gets the life saving operation?
Life long smoker w/ lung cancer or my non smoking mom w/ lung cancer?

Who gets the liver?
A has been hard core drunk 50something w/ cirrhosis or me, who got hepatitis as a kid?

So, who dies?
The non helmet wearing Hell's Angels tough guy that rides high as a kite or my daughter that he ran over?

While it's easy to wave the magic health care wand, it's not so easy to to actually cover everyone.

And frankly, not everyone should be saved.
Can't we all just hold hands, smoke a joint, and listen to some Joplin?




MV, if only life were so fair.
Old Jul 27, 2007 | 03:21 PM
  #114  
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You know, all these other countries with working socialized health care systems don't have problems with 'choosing' who to give care to. Why would we? Seriously...what's so hard to believe about just giving everyone care who needs it?


I don't know about the hand holding and Joplin...
Old Jul 28, 2007 | 09:12 AM
  #115  
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Socialist countries w/ socialist healthcare do have problems...plenty of problems.
I guess it comes down to do we want to exchange one set problems for another.

BTW, my father had a body shop in Marin County...he used to fix Joplin's car...she held me a couple of times when I was a babe.
Old Jul 28, 2007 | 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul@dbtuned
Socialist countries w/ socialist healthcare do have problems...plenty of problems.

Well sure, but I don't think their problems are choosing who to give needed care to. They give care to everyone who needs it.

I guess you're right that it would be an exchange of 'problems'. But it seems to me that a lot of the stress that causes societal problems in our country would be alleviated if everyone knew they'd be taken care of if they needed to be (in terms of health care).
Old Jul 28, 2007 | 10:06 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by MVWRX
Well sure, but I don't think their problems are choosing who to give needed care to. They give care to everyone who needs it.

I guess you're right that it would be an exchange of 'problems'. But it seems to me that a lot of the stress that causes societal problems in our country would be alleviated if everyone knew they'd be taken care of if they needed to be (in terms of health care).
I think no longer being the highest reason for bankruptcy is one of those social problems being fixed.
Old Jul 29, 2007 | 12:54 AM
  #118  
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They key to understanding Michael Moore, is to understand fiction. Once you understand fiction, you will understand Michael Moore.
Old Jul 29, 2007 | 11:46 AM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by brucelee
They key to understanding Michael Moore, is to understand fiction. Once you understand fiction, you will understand Michael Moore.
Oh wise and knowledgeable one, please tell us what fiction Michael Moore talked about in Sicko?
Old Jul 29, 2007 | 09:04 PM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by MVWRX
Well sure, but I don't think their problems are choosing who to give needed care to. They give care to everyone who needs it.

I guess you're right that it would be an exchange of 'problems'. But it seems to me that a lot of the stress that causes societal problems in our country would be alleviated if everyone knew they'd be taken care of if they needed to be (in terms of health care).
Actually, I have several friends, family members, and customers that live in various countries with socialized healthcare, and they all love it for normal issues, procedures, illnesses.

But to a person they'd tell you that you'd better not need an extrodinary procedure, like chemo, because you'll most likely die before starting treatment.
They'd tell you about lack lustre medical staff, who frquently make grave errors, that ultimately cost lives.

Again, my main point is why do you want the gov't involved in your health?
You may not have said it that simply, but that's what socialized healthcare is: gov't involvment.

And again, I contend that gov't ran anything sucks ***.

Look at Katrina and how every gov't agency from local, city, county, state, and yes, federal, all ****ed up.
Also, look at all those poor souls that followed the mantra of gov't dependence.
How many died because they exchanged the "inconvience" self reliance for the teet of gov't hand out?

These are the same pukes you want providing your healthcare?
**** that!

I don't know if you have ever worked for/with a gov't agency, but the few times I have, the level of quality was below private industry standards & costs went through the roof.

Look at simple gov't constrution projects vs private projects.
I can't think of one gov't project that either on time or on budget...let alone both!

Do you really believe that overall quality of healthcare in the US will increase once socialized?

I contend that by socializing any service, including healthcare, will increase those covered but at the expence of lower quality for all.

Yes, something must be done.
Socialism is never the answer.



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