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Democrats: Health care is a right

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Old Jul 23, 2009 | 10:58 AM
  #211  
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Hey Paul, check out this site for the closest thing I've found to an unbiased news source: http://oldamericancentury.org/
Old Jul 23, 2009 | 05:56 PM
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New thought of the day:

I have been reading opinions on this current situation and they brought up something that I overlooked.


Healthcare providers are not in competition with one another. They have NO incentive to lower their prices, as people need healthcare no matter what. So even though capitalism should be allowed to run free... what do you do when the price isn't finding equilibrium?
Old Jul 23, 2009 | 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Turbo Rob
New thought of the day:

I have been reading opinions on this current situation and they brought up something that I overlooked.


Healthcare providers are not in competition with one another. They have NO incentive to lower their prices, as people need healthcare no matter what. So even though capitalism should be allowed to run free... what do you do when the price isn't finding equilibrium?
How do you figure they're not in competition with each other?
Old Jul 23, 2009 | 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Superglue WRX
How do you figure they're not in competition with each other?
In my experience, health care providers don't really compete with each other. If you search for individual plans across multiple providers, you'll find that they're all essentially the same price. Granted, it's anecdotal and based on my personal experience with a preexisting condition, but there you have it.
Old Jul 23, 2009 | 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by saqwarrior
In my experience, health care providers don't really compete with each other. If you search for individual plans across multiple providers, you'll find that they're all essentially the same price. Granted, it's anecdotal and based on my personal experience with a preexisting condition, but there you have it.
Coke and Pepsi are all roughly the same price too .

But I get get it. Sounds more like cohesion. They don't lose market share and still keep profits by keeping the prices up.
Old Jul 23, 2009 | 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Superglue WRX
Coke and Pepsi are all roughly the same price too .

But I get get it. Sounds more like cohesion. They don't lose market share and still keep profits by keeping the prices up.
Eh, that's until one company figures that they will cut costs to pull more customers, and hence the market competing for consumers.
Old Jul 24, 2009 | 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Turbo Rob
Yeah but I am sure that the 50million Americans that don't have health insurance would be jumping for joy to have mediocre healthcare as opposed to NONE.
paul beat me to it...

Originally Posted by Paul@dbtuned
Of course they would love it...they don't haveto pay for it!
How about this: balance the budget first, then spend a few trillion on health. getting full universal health care in this country wont matter if we are a second rate bankrupt country.
Old Jul 24, 2009 | 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by saqwarrior
In my experience, health care providers don't really compete with each other. If you search for individual plans across multiple providers, you'll find that they're all essentially the same price. Granted, it's anecdotal and based on my personal experience with a preexisting condition, but there you have it.
I did not realize "stupid" was considered a pre-existing condition
Old Jul 24, 2009 | 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by saqwarrior
In my experience, health care providers don't really compete with each other. If you search for individual plans across multiple providers, you'll find that they're all essentially the same price. Granted, it's anecdotal and based on my personal experience with a preexisting condition, but there you have it.
Well, you do have a point regarding pre-existing conditions. On the hand, once you are insured through one provider, and are diagnosed with a particular condition, you'll basically stick with that provider forever because it would simply cost too much to go with anyone else. So from a cost perspective, you might be "locked in." Essentially, when that provider agreed to insure you they were taking a gamble that they'd get more money out of you than they would have to spend, and they lost.

On the other hand, from a new providers' prospective, it makes no business-sense to offer to cover your pre-existing condition at the same rate as your old provider, knowing that the will constantly pay more per month in coverage than they are receiving in premium payments. I mean, they're meant to be a profitable business, not a charity.
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Old Jul 24, 2009 | 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul@dbtuned
I did not realize "stupid" was considered a pre-existing condition
It's not, but cancer is.

EDIT: Oh boy, that's a downer. Your joke made me laugh.

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Old Jul 24, 2009 | 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by kyoung05
Well, you do have a point regarding pre-existing conditions. On the hand, once you are insured through one provider, and are diagnosed with a particular condition, you'll basically stick with that provider forever because it would simply cost too much to go with anyone else. So from a cost perspective, you might be "locked in." Essentially, when that provider agreed to insure you they were taking a gamble that they'd get more money out of you than they would have to spend, and they lost.

On the other hand, from a new providers' prospective, it makes no business-sense to offer to cover your pre-existing condition at the same rate as your old provider, knowing that the will constantly pay more per month in coverage than they are receiving in premium payments. I mean, they're meant to be a profitable business, not a charity.
I have an ethical problem with the idea that saving peoples' lives is about profit. Of course, I have some pretty strange ideas about money, labor and society in general, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
Old Jul 24, 2009 | 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by saqwarrior
I have an ethical problem with the idea that saving peoples' lives is about profit. Of course, I have some pretty strange ideas about money, labor and society in general, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
Be that as it may, you can't say health insurance providers care any more about saving lives than auto insurance providers care about ensuring their clients won't go into financial ruin if they get into an accident. Insurance providers aren't doctors (who probably do care about saving lives). Insurance is nothing more than a way to hedge risks - you'd rather constantly pay $200/mo than to have to pay $200k out of nowhere.
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Last edited by kyoung05; Mar 30, 2011 at 10:02 AM.
Old Jul 24, 2009 | 11:48 AM
  #223  
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Originally Posted by kyoung05
Be that as it may, you can't say health insurance providers care any more about saving lives than auto insurance providers care about ensuring their clients won't go into financial ruin if they get into an accident. Insurance providers aren't doctors (who probably do care about saving lives). Insurance is nothing more than a way to hedge risks - you'd rather constantly pay $200/mo than to have to pay $200k out of nowhere.
Oh, I don't disagree at all. I'm just saying I don't like how it works.
Old Jul 24, 2009 | 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by saqwarrior
Oh, I don't disagree at all. I'm just saying I don't like how it works.
Well, I think insurance provides a workable/fair middle-ground. Without it, there would be 2 options - (1) the government provides free health care to all, in which case some people will get something for nothing; or (2) make people pay for the full cost of care out of pocket, in which case the majority of the people wouldn't even be able to afford regular doctor's visits.

While option 1 may sound appealing, I think the fundamental problem lies in the fact that like power, receiving a benefit for free corrupts a person. You get something significant at no cost for long enough, and you can't help but think you're entitled to it forever. Think about it - if someone gave a person $1000/month for a number of years, any person would begin to think that that money was theirs; they sure as hell wouldn't want to give it up, but at the same time, they sure as hell wouldn't feel like they needed to work for it either. With respect to universal health care, I feel that those who were getting something for nothing would feel like they were entitled to it, while those that have to pay extra to cover those that couldn't afford it would become resentful. I think a system like this takes away some of the incentive people may have had to work and be a productive member of society.
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Old Jul 25, 2009 | 10:13 PM
  #225  
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Originally Posted by saqwarrior
I have an ethical problem with the idea that saving peoples' lives is about profit. Of course, I have some pretty strange ideas about money, labor and society in general, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Unfortunately, good feelings don't pay off student loans, and Med school costs alot of money.
I see no reason you can't make money and do good at the same time..
Granted you have companies that screw over their clients (insurance companies etc using loopholes to avoid payouts ala New Orleans comes to mind)
And those companies should be out of business, but profit doesn't automatically equate to wrongdoing.

While option 1 may sound appealing, I think the fundamental problem lies in the fact that like power, receiving a benefit for free corrupts a person. You get something significant at no cost for long enough, and you can't help but think you're entitled to it forever. Think about it - if someone gave a person $1000/month for a number of years, any person would begin to think that that money was theirs; they sure as hell wouldn't want to give it up, but at the same time, they sure as hell wouldn't feel like they needed to work for it either. With respect to universal health care, I feel that those who were getting something for nothing would feel like they were entitled to it, while those that have to pay extra to cover those that couldn't afford it would become resentful. I think a system like this takes away some of the incentive people may have had to work and be a productive member of society.
Sounds similar to generational welfare.. Where you will have 2 or more generations of a family on welfare. They don't even know how to really work anymore. They just kind of leach off of everyone else.

Last edited by Tizzo27; Jul 25, 2009 at 10:23 PM.



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