I knew it would not last long.

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Old May 11, 2005 | 01:44 PM
  #121  
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lol nice the pics didnt show up haha.






























































































































































































































































































































































































































ahh well maybe next time
Old May 11, 2005 | 01:47 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by R4ND0M_AX3
Does this mean that the fine learning table is ignored or does it just not use positive values when IAM is maxed?
From what I have read and the emails back and forth with people at ECUTEK when I had my previous piggyback ECU in place and also the post I linked is that the fine learning table is ignored when the IAM is at 16. If the IAM is below 16 it will refer to that table to see where it can increase and where it has to decrease timing.
Old May 11, 2005 | 01:52 PM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by R4ND0M_AX3
Does this mean that the fine learning table is ignored or does it just not use positive values when IAM is maxed?

Stephen aluded to that in the begining of the thread, but if you read on, evidence is shown that this is not the case. When the IAM is at 16, the fine learning mechanism is still in effect. I'm sure many people have noted pings and dips in their knock correction curve while the IAM remained at 16. The fine learning mechanism is just that... its there to adjust timing in specific load and RPM ranges while the IAM is an overall adjustment meant for extreme changes in octane. You are correct in saying that the fine learning table does not use positive values while the IAM is at 16. That is what Stephen was trying to say, not that the entire fine learning mechanism is not used.
Old May 11, 2005 | 01:56 PM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by R4ND0M_AX3
Would it be any different if the tuner pulled the timing?
Yes, the difference is that the car would not experience nearly as much knock. The other issue is that if the ECU is ever reset, the engine will be subjected to all that knock again before the ECU learns around it.
Old May 11, 2005 | 01:59 PM
  #125  
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but if the ecu is reset, the IAM reverts back to the default of 8. wouldn't this reduce the timing until the ecu is happy with the conditions and advances?

assuming the driver doesn't do the "vishnu reset" and max it immediately.
Old May 11, 2005 | 02:06 PM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by RussB
but if the ecu is reset, the IAM reverts back to the default of 8. wouldn't this reduce the timing until the ecu is happy with the conditions and advances?

assuming the driver doesn't do the "vishnu reset" and max it immediately.
Not necessarily. First of all, the starting value of the IAM is up to the tuner and most tuners choose to start it at around 12. The other issue as I've pointed out before is that there is a different set of RPM and load conditions for the IAM learning as apposed to the fine ignition learning. So when the ECU is reset and driven normally, it may be within the IAM learning conditions which will drive the IAM up to 16 very quickly. Then if the car knocks outside of the range of the IAM learning, only the fine learning mechanism will be able to react to it. In the case of Keegan's car, it seems that the IAM learning is done in the lower RPM range, but when the car knocks on the top end, that is out of the range of the IAM learning, thus causing the fine learning map to have to absorb large amounts of negative learning in this area.
Old May 11, 2005 | 02:25 PM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by EQ Tuning
Stephen aluded to that in the begining of the thread, but if you read on, evidence is shown that this is not the case.
Where does the evidence show that this is not the case?
It appears to me that StephenDone sent the person that tried to say that it is not the case off to read the FHI patents on their ignition timing strategy. I do not see where Stephen admitted or was proven that his post was incorrect.


When the IAM is at 16, the fine learning mechanism is still in effect. I'm sure many people have noted pings and dips in their knock correction curve while the IAM remained at 16.
This is where KC and not fine learning comes in to play. knock is corrected and as long as it is not severe knock it is corrected through the KC. I have not found anything that links KC to fine learning - have you?
The fine learning mechanism is just that... its there to adjust timing in specific load and RPM ranges while the IAM is an overall adjustment meant for extreme changes in octane.
Extreme changes in octane would lower the IAM and bring the fine learning table back in to the mix.
You are correct in saying that the fine learning table does not use positive values while the IAM is at 16.
And you appear to be incorrect in saying that it uses only - values.
That is what Stephen was trying to say, not that the entire fine learning mechanism is not used.
If he was trying to say that I would think he would have corrected himself, no?
Old May 11, 2005 | 03:29 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by verc
I appreciate your intellectual bashing

no ****ing problem you **** gobbling ***** bag who drinks from douche bags..

PS

****ing eat a fat *** mangled grandpas **** while a midget riding a trike rams you in the *** with a weed whacker powered *****
Old May 11, 2005 | 03:31 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by verc
That isn't going to solve jack. That car could put out 300whp at Gruppe-S and I am going to open this thread and see another post telling Ed to "stop taking programming classes and take some business classes"

dont think anyone here is debating his ability to code in fortran or what ever he is doing.

We are how ever debating his ability to conduct a buisness and interact with a community that he wants to support him and his activities..

So far its Ed -10 and the community +40
Old May 11, 2005 | 03:44 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by dr3d1zzl3
dont think anyone here is debating his ability to code in fortran or what ever he is doing.

We are how ever debating his ability to conduct a buisness and interact with a community that he wants to support him and his activities..

So far its Ed -10 and the community +40
if you dont like his business practices, why dont you just take your business elsewhere instead of needlessly bashing him. but i guess you cant do that becasue it actually makes sense..........
Old May 11, 2005 | 03:49 PM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by BlackVenom96
if you dont like his business practices, why dont you just take your business elsewhere instead of needlessly bashing him. but i guess you cant do that becasue it actually makes sense..........
because this is the internet and that's not how things are done on said internet. dead horses are beaten to the point where they can't even be used to make glue.
Old May 11, 2005 | 03:50 PM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by RussB
because this is the internet and that's not how things are done on said internet. dead horses are beaten to the point where they can't even be used to make glue.
ok, i was just checking. ;-)
Old May 11, 2005 | 04:10 PM
  #133  
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Did someone say beat dead horse..........

or was it beat RussB's mom.......(smilie to be posted)
Old May 11, 2005 | 04:48 PM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by dr3d1zzl3
no ****ing problem you **** gobbling ***** bag who drinks from douche bags..

PS

****ing eat a fat *** mangled grandpas **** while a midget riding a trike rams you in the *** with a weed whacker powered *****

are you by any chance related to Ali G??
Old May 11, 2005 | 04:54 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by Ali G
Where does the evidence show that this is not the case?
It appears to me that StephenDone sent the person that tried to say that it is not the case off to read the FHI patents on their ignition timing strategy. I do not see where Stephen admitted or was proven that his post was incorrect.



This is where KC and not fine learning comes in to play. knock is corrected and as long as it is not severe knock it is corrected through the KC. I have not found anything that links KC to fine learning - have you?

Extreme changes in octane would lower the IAM and bring the fine learning table back in to the mix.

And you appear to be incorrect in saying that it uses only - values.

If he was trying to say that I would think he would have corrected himself, no?
Ali,

this is the last time I will try to explain this to you. Feel free to argue against it as you have with the same arguments instead of looking at actual data and trying to understand the system. I won't argue with you anymore on this subject however.

You seem to be missing the main point about knock correction that I have made over and over and you even stated that you knew before I explained it.
Knock correction is the combination of values taken from the ignition correction map which are then adjusted by multiplying them by (IAM/16) combined with values taken out of the fine learning table. This combination is what you see as "knock correction" in deltadash. So as you can see, the values in the fine learning table are a direct part of the knock correction values reported by DD. When there is knock outside of the range of IAM learning, the fine learning table is adjusted by the ECU to pull enough timing to stop the knock. This adjustment is also reflected in the knock correction values. For example, if the fine learning table was full of zero's and the IAM was at 16 (no knock), the knock correction values in Keegan's logs would stay at around 7-9 degrees on the top end. Now in reality, Keegan's ECU raised the IAM to 16 while he was driving within the learning range of the IAM and then the ECU sensed knock on the top end where it is outside of the learning range of the IAM. Since its outside this range, the ECU does not adjust the IAM, but rather has to use the fine learning table to pull timing on the top end. It did so, pulling up to 9.5 degrees of timing on the top end in response to knock and as you can see in his logs, these negative values from the fine learning table are reflected in the knock correction values as they dip into the negatives on the top end.
Remember that the fine learning table values are a direct part of the knock correction values in this way:
knock correction = (IAM/16) * Ignition Correction Map(load, rpm) + Fine Learning Table(load, RPM).
So when the knock correction values go negative on the top end while the IAM is still at 16, you can see that the only way that can happen is because the Fine Learning Table part of the knock correction equation takes on a negative value with a higher magnitude than the (IAM/16)*Ignition Correction Map part of the equation.
On top of that, when the IAM is 16, it imposes a maximum on the knock correction values. This means that the Fine Learning table cannot advance timing beyond this level so it cannot contain any positive values. Again... this is only the case when the IAM is 16. It can and does, however, correct for knock with negative values in this case. When the IAM is lower than 16, the fine learning map can sometimes have positive values in it, trying to advance timing in areas of the map where it will not cause knock since the entire map has been shifted down by the drop in IAM.

There is a lot of information here, so please read it carefully as I've posted the same explanation several times and you seem to ignore it. Feel free to talk to Nate or any other tuner about this and I'm sure they will confirm this functionality of the active ignition system.

Thanks

Last edited by MethodBuilt; May 11, 2005 at 04:58 PM.
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