avoid voiding the warranty.
06-04-2013, 11:59 AM
#16
I'd trust the guys who have dissected the Subaru ECU. They're going to know quite a bit more than even tuner shops do.
COBB wouldn't publish that kind of information just for the simple fact, like you said Vlad, that they don't want to scare people from modding their car, and why this info is being passed through the grapevine.
I'd at least concider the idea plausible if warranty is a concern to the vehicle owner.
Back to the thread topic, suspension and cosmetic enhancements are a good place to mod and not worry about your engine warranty.
COBB wouldn't publish that kind of information just for the simple fact, like you said Vlad, that they don't want to scare people from modding their car, and why this info is being passed through the grapevine.
I'd at least concider the idea plausible if warranty is a concern to the vehicle owner.
Back to the thread topic, suspension and cosmetic enhancements are a good place to mod and not worry about your engine warranty.
06-04-2013, 12:20 PM
#18
Technical Know-It-All
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Sterling, VA
Posts: 2,123
Car Info: '02 WRX + '15 WRX
No offense and all but your $.02 is not relevant. Your friend is wasting his time. They aren't going to slap his wrist for bringing a modded/flashed car in for an oil change. It has to be a relevant repair.
06-04-2013, 01:46 PM
#21
Instead of regurgitating information you have absolutely no real life experience or knowledge with, you can just....oh I dunno, NOT POST?
If you do have some actual hands on experience though, I'm all ears.
I'd trust the guys who have dissected the Subaru ECU. They're going to know quite a bit more than even tuner shops do.
COBB wouldn't publish that kind of information just for the simple fact, like you said Vlad, that they don't want to scare people from modding their car, and why this info is being passed through the grapevine.
I'd at least concider the idea plausible if warranty is a concern to the vehicle owner.
COBB wouldn't publish that kind of information just for the simple fact, like you said Vlad, that they don't want to scare people from modding their car, and why this info is being passed through the grapevine.
I'd at least concider the idea plausible if warranty is a concern to the vehicle owner.
My question is whether your warranty will be voided from having had an accessport or any other flash on the car, then reverting back to stock and taking it in to the dealer for servicing/maintenance/or whatever else. The answer is NO. If someone can state otherwise with some actual evidence, again I'm all ears.
Now if you bring the car in to the dealer with an exploded transmission, melted ringland, or other OBVIOUS signs of abuse, they may void your warranty if they find out it was modded and tuned. Chances are though, that 99% of the time they will do that EVEN IF THE CAR WASN'T TUNED, because they're not stupid and can pick up on things like a previously modded/abused car. Its really not rocket science.
That's why I find people like Brfatal so amusing, and challenge 99% of their horsecrap claims.
There is risk involved any time you mod a car. Heck, even if you don't mod it and tune it, but simply abuse it you still run a really good risk of getting voided warranty CLAIM due to "abuse". Just ask all the 06-07 owners who were left at the dealer with their stock car without an intact transmission and their thumb up their butt.
Last edited by Vladi; 06-04-2013 at 01:51 PM.
06-04-2013, 02:28 PM
#22
Here's some info from Cobb...
" They can't tell its AP but they do see a flash date. If you have an issue, flash car to stock and bring it in and they see that it was flashed a few days ago it make them wonder. Some dealerships are easier going than others so depends on how they are I guess if they care.
There is a lot of rumour and concern about this issue and the bottom line is that we have never found this to be true. There is no stored data in the Subaru ECU that the dealer can see to show that the ECU was ever flashed. There is no "black box" or recorder that the dealer can look at and say "AHA! You have a flash!". We have been inside these ECUs probably more than most folks and we just cannot find any evidence for this at all. I have a feeling this is something that some service writers tell people who purchase these cars as a sort of boogy man. You should use your AccessPORT with confidence and if you uninstall the AccessPORT your ECU is back to 100% stock. "
"There is no flash counter on the Subaru ECU. The dealer does not have the ability to use some form of scan tool to discover that your ECU has been reflashed once the AccessPORT has been uninstalled. I hope that this can help dispell any misunderstandings about how the ECU and AccessPORT work.
We understand that many users want to have fun, but would rather not have fun at the cost of a voided warranty due to some form of "black box" or flash counter. However, the Subaru ECU is not able to track such information. Once you uninstall your AccessPORT your ECU is 100%, OEM, stock!"
"It is important to understand that the dealer can certainly detect (if they choose to do so) changes to the ECU's ROM. This would occur when you install the AccessPORT (or any other solution that tunes the ECU via a reflash). When a dealership employee explains these types of methods to someone, they are most likely talking about this kind of detection.
The gray area is whether or not the dealer can detect changes to the ECU that have been made in the past AFTER the ECU's ROM has been put back to its original state before the aftermarket ROM was flashed. This would be the case if you properly uninstalled the AccessPORT v2 (or with other solutions, reflashed the original stock ROM assuming you backed it up). To date, we have not seen any credible evidence of this. Doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or that it will not be added in the future, however. Some other manufacturers do have this capability, so it is not impossible.
The dealer could determine that an ECU reset has occurred recently by looking at specific OBD/SSM parameters. An ECU reset will occur when the ROM is reflashed. However, the same thing will occur when you disconnect the car's battery, so, it is certainly not a foolproof means of determining anything for certain (of course, that may not matter depending on the dealer or if there's evidence of other current or prior modifications)."
Sooooo, it looks like if you uninstall your accessport from your car it will return your oem map to your ecu. The dealer will be able to tell that the ecu was reset, but cannot prove that it was a retune. Unplugging your battery would yield the same results...
" They can't tell its AP but they do see a flash date. If you have an issue, flash car to stock and bring it in and they see that it was flashed a few days ago it make them wonder. Some dealerships are easier going than others so depends on how they are I guess if they care.
There is a lot of rumour and concern about this issue and the bottom line is that we have never found this to be true. There is no stored data in the Subaru ECU that the dealer can see to show that the ECU was ever flashed. There is no "black box" or recorder that the dealer can look at and say "AHA! You have a flash!". We have been inside these ECUs probably more than most folks and we just cannot find any evidence for this at all. I have a feeling this is something that some service writers tell people who purchase these cars as a sort of boogy man. You should use your AccessPORT with confidence and if you uninstall the AccessPORT your ECU is back to 100% stock. "
"There is no flash counter on the Subaru ECU. The dealer does not have the ability to use some form of scan tool to discover that your ECU has been reflashed once the AccessPORT has been uninstalled. I hope that this can help dispell any misunderstandings about how the ECU and AccessPORT work.
We understand that many users want to have fun, but would rather not have fun at the cost of a voided warranty due to some form of "black box" or flash counter. However, the Subaru ECU is not able to track such information. Once you uninstall your AccessPORT your ECU is 100%, OEM, stock!"
"It is important to understand that the dealer can certainly detect (if they choose to do so) changes to the ECU's ROM. This would occur when you install the AccessPORT (or any other solution that tunes the ECU via a reflash). When a dealership employee explains these types of methods to someone, they are most likely talking about this kind of detection.
The gray area is whether or not the dealer can detect changes to the ECU that have been made in the past AFTER the ECU's ROM has been put back to its original state before the aftermarket ROM was flashed. This would be the case if you properly uninstalled the AccessPORT v2 (or with other solutions, reflashed the original stock ROM assuming you backed it up). To date, we have not seen any credible evidence of this. Doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or that it will not be added in the future, however. Some other manufacturers do have this capability, so it is not impossible.
The dealer could determine that an ECU reset has occurred recently by looking at specific OBD/SSM parameters. An ECU reset will occur when the ROM is reflashed. However, the same thing will occur when you disconnect the car's battery, so, it is certainly not a foolproof means of determining anything for certain (of course, that may not matter depending on the dealer or if there's evidence of other current or prior modifications)."
Sooooo, it looks like if you uninstall your accessport from your car it will return your oem map to your ecu. The dealer will be able to tell that the ecu was reset, but cannot prove that it was a retune. Unplugging your battery would yield the same results...
06-04-2013, 03:06 PM
#24
Anyhow, I was surprised to get the answers I got.
06-04-2013, 08:04 PM
#26
Technical Know-It-All
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Sterling, VA
Posts: 2,123
Car Info: '02 WRX + '15 WRX
Yeah, and that would make your .02 even less relevant, because he's actually talking about a real life situation that relates to this topic vs you just spewing random grapevine rumors and not having a single real instance to present to us.
Instead of regurgitating information you have absolutely no real life experience or knowledge with, you can just....oh I dunno, NOT POST?
It's funny when people try to conjure up answers going against the words of the people who do the make the product in the 1st place, especially when it's an admission of faults related to one. Their flagship product too no less. But I guess with your years of experience tearing down Subarus ECUs as part of the OpenSource development team you know more than them right?
If you do have some actual hands on experience though, I'm all ears.
That's not the point. The point is Brfatal made an assinine statement that I'd expect a "technician know-it-all" to make not really know wth he's talking about.
My question is whether your warranty will be voided from having had an accessport or any other flash on the car, then reverting back to stock and taking it in to the dealer for servicing/maintenance/or whatever else. The answer is NO. If someone can state otherwise with some actual evidence, again I'm all ears.
I don't believer anyone here has made this claim. Your warranty can't be legally voided, however a warranty claim can be denied.
Now if you bring the car in to the dealer with an exploded transmission, melted ringland, or other OBVIOUS signs of abuse, they may void your warranty if they find out it was modded and tuned. Chances are though, that 99% of the time they will do that EVEN IF THE CAR WASN'T TUNED, because they're not stupid and can pick up on things like a previously modded/abused car. Its really not rocket science.
That's why I find people like Brfatal so amusing, and challenge 99% of their horsecrap claims.
Poppycock.
There is risk involved any time you mod a car. Heck, even if you don't mod it and tune it, but simply abuse it you still run a really good risk of getting voided warranty CLAIM due to "abuse". Just ask all the 06-07 owners who were left at the dealer with their stock car without an intact transmission and their thumb up their butt.
Instead of regurgitating information you have absolutely no real life experience or knowledge with, you can just....oh I dunno, NOT POST?
It's funny when people try to conjure up answers going against the words of the people who do the make the product in the 1st place, especially when it's an admission of faults related to one. Their flagship product too no less. But I guess with your years of experience tearing down Subarus ECUs as part of the OpenSource development team you know more than them right?
If you do have some actual hands on experience though, I'm all ears.
That's not the point. The point is Brfatal made an assinine statement that I'd expect a "technician know-it-all" to make not really know wth he's talking about.
My question is whether your warranty will be voided from having had an accessport or any other flash on the car, then reverting back to stock and taking it in to the dealer for servicing/maintenance/or whatever else. The answer is NO. If someone can state otherwise with some actual evidence, again I'm all ears.
I don't believer anyone here has made this claim. Your warranty can't be legally voided, however a warranty claim can be denied.
Now if you bring the car in to the dealer with an exploded transmission, melted ringland, or other OBVIOUS signs of abuse, they may void your warranty if they find out it was modded and tuned. Chances are though, that 99% of the time they will do that EVEN IF THE CAR WASN'T TUNED, because they're not stupid and can pick up on things like a previously modded/abused car. Its really not rocket science.
That's why I find people like Brfatal so amusing, and challenge 99% of their horsecrap claims.
Poppycock.
There is risk involved any time you mod a car. Heck, even if you don't mod it and tune it, but simply abuse it you still run a really good risk of getting voided warranty CLAIM due to "abuse". Just ask all the 06-07 owners who were left at the dealer with their stock car without an intact transmission and their thumb up their butt.
Yep. We've known about those posts for a while, however the fact remains that if SoA wants to find it, they have the ability to do so. My previous answer is not made up by me, it's straight from Cobb employees (one of whom is the manager of one of their satellite locations). I apologize if all I have is my word considering these were in person discussions, but I have no reason to make it up. Also keep in mind that SoA has further tools not accessible by dealership techs.
The funny thing is that I started researching this thinking brfatal was right. He's a great source for technical info as he has been in the Subaru field for many years. He is almost never wrong, just sometimes comes across a little opinionated...
Anyhow, I was surprised to get the answers I got.
Anyhow, I was surprised to get the answers I got.
That being said, most denials are made without any indepth look at the ECU. It's usually a combination for signs that lead to it.For the record, I want to say that the newer ECUs have start counters. That's what I remember *hearing* (I better point this out now before Vlad writes another bit of fanfare talking about how all I do is speculate
) at least. While not conclusive alone, it can be a pretty good indicator. Any confirmation on that Vlad?There is no point to unmarrying your ECU even if I was wrong. They will only look it over if the service you are in for is related the the modified part, in this case the ECU. Nobody cares about your ECU when you come in for regular service intervals or minor repairs.
Last edited by Brfatal; 06-04-2013 at 08:15 PM.
06-04-2013, 08:20 PM
#27
Red. Your "If you don't know don't post" is great policy and I follow it myself. You won't see my posting in anything threads about electrical issues. However I have good info, and some experience as a dealership service adviser, so I would say that I'm qualified enough to offer input. More qualified than others.
Yep. We've known about those posts for a while, however the fact remains that if SoA wants to find it, they have the ability to do so. My previous answer is not made up by me, it's straight from Cobb employees (one of whom is the manager of one of their satellite locations). I apologize if all I have is my word considering these were in person discussions, but I have no reason to make it up. Also keep in mind that SoA has further tools not accessible by dealership techs.
I am right. That being said, most denials are made without any indepth look at the ECU. It's usually a combination for signs that lead to it.
For the record, I want to say that the newer ECUs have start counters. That's what I remember *hearing* (I better point this out now before Vlad writes another bit of fanfare talking about how all I do is speculate) at least. While not conclusive alone, it can be a pretty good indicator. Any confirmation on that Vlad?
There is no point to unmarrying your ECU even if I was wrong. They will only look it over if the service you are in for is related the the modified part, in this case the ECU. Nobody cares about your ECU when you come in for regular service intervals or minor repairs.
Yep. We've known about those posts for a while, however the fact remains that if SoA wants to find it, they have the ability to do so. My previous answer is not made up by me, it's straight from Cobb employees (one of whom is the manager of one of their satellite locations). I apologize if all I have is my word considering these were in person discussions, but I have no reason to make it up. Also keep in mind that SoA has further tools not accessible by dealership techs.
I am right.
That being said, most denials are made without any indepth look at the ECU. It's usually a combination for signs that lead to it.For the record, I want to say that the newer ECUs have start counters. That's what I remember *hearing* (I better point this out now before Vlad writes another bit of fanfare talking about how all I do is speculate
) at least. While not conclusive alone, it can be a pretty good indicator. Any confirmation on that Vlad?There is no point to unmarrying your ECU even if I was wrong. They will only look it over if the service you are in for is related the the modified part, in this case the ECU. Nobody cares about your ECU when you come in for regular service intervals or minor repairs.
But by all means continue regurgitating second hand rumors claiming whatever it is you claim after a quote is posted from the same people you claim to know and have these heart to heart conversations with hahaha
Good day
Last edited by Vladi; 06-04-2013 at 08:22 PM.
06-04-2013, 08:37 PM
#28
I'd trust the guys who have dissected the Subaru ECU. They're going to know quite a bit more than even tuner shops do.
COBB wouldn't publish that kind of information just for the simple fact, like you said Vlad, that they don't want to scare people from modding their car, and why this info is being passed through the grapevine.
COBB wouldn't publish that kind of information just for the simple fact, like you said Vlad, that they don't want to scare people from modding their car, and why this info is being passed through the grapevine.
Kinda like how big tobacco doesn't want people to know it causes cancer. Rather, they use terms like bold, pleasure and slim to sell their products.
06-04-2013, 09:14 PM
#29
Technical Know-It-All
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Sterling, VA
Posts: 2,123
Car Info: '02 WRX + '15 WRX
I already wrote why COBB would never admit if reflashing is visible. It would be horrible for business. They want to make their product warm and inviting, and not the cause of nightmares.
Kinda like how big tobacco doesn't want people to know it causes cancer. Rather, they use terms like bold, pleasure and slim to sell their products.
Kinda like how big tobacco doesn't want people to know it causes cancer. Rather, they use terms like bold, pleasure and slim to sell their products.
