Another S^2 tune gone bad... :(
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Originally Posted by Egan
I don't see much more than 840C, even at the track (sometimes out there it will peak to close to 900C). My probe is right next to the O2 sensor where all four exhaust pipes come together just before the uppipe.
One time I was seeing upwards of 1000C. Turns out my fuel pressure regulator vacuum hose popped off due to high boost and the fuel pressure reverted to 43 psi static.
^^^^^^^^^^^ This is why you spend the money on EGT and fuel pressure gauges!!!!
One time I was seeing upwards of 1000C. Turns out my fuel pressure regulator vacuum hose popped off due to high boost and the fuel pressure reverted to 43 psi static.
^^^^^^^^^^^ This is why you spend the money on EGT and fuel pressure gauges!!!!
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In general, a WRX on pump gas shouldn't run more than ~800-820C and an STI shouldn't see more than 840C. This is of course with the probe positioned a couple of inches from the hottest exhaust port. 870C is the most you should see on ANY car. If its higher, your tune is deffinately on the lean side and could cause damage.
Last edited by MethodBuilt; Feb 7, 2006 at 03:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by Egan
I don't see much more than 840C, even at the track (sometimes out there it will peak to close to 900C). My probe is right next to the O2 sensor where all four exhaust pipes come together just before the uppipe...
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Originally Posted by EQ Tuning
Do you have a WRX or STI? If those numbers are from a WRX, they're deffinately on the hot side and your car is probably tuned around 11.5:1. If its an STI, they're still a bit hot but acceptable as STI's tend to run higher EGT's in general. The other thing is that your placement of the probe isn't ideal. It should be closer to the exhaust port of the hottest cylinder to get a more accurate reading. Your actual EGT's are going to be a bit hotter than what your gauge is registering.
And on that note, I would definately swing it by and have Ed or Paul take a look at it to be safe
Every now and then if I'm doing canyon roads or getting on it alot on my 100 octane tune, I'll see close to 900 C* other then that I never go above 850
Originally Posted by Egan
I don't see much more than 840C, even at the track (sometimes out there it will peak to close to 900C). My probe is right next to the O2 sensor where all four exhaust pipes come together just before the uppipe.
One time I was seeing upwards of 1000C. Turns out my fuel pressure regulator vacuum hose popped off due to high boost and the fuel pressure reverted to 43 psi static.
^^^^^^^^^^^ This is why you spend the money on EGT and fuel pressure gauges!!!!
One time I was seeing upwards of 1000C. Turns out my fuel pressure regulator vacuum hose popped off due to high boost and the fuel pressure reverted to 43 psi static.
^^^^^^^^^^^ This is why you spend the money on EGT and fuel pressure gauges!!!!
who knows what conditions any of the above cars have seen.
and without monitoring equipment (i.e. gauges) there is know way of knowing if/when you're running in a critical area.
anytime you're taking a car to a state it was not originally designed to be at, you are running a risk of having something go wrong.
the more stuff you add, the more variables to go wrong.
and if you spend all your money on "gofass" parts and skimp on preventative measures (like gauges and regular maintanance along with many other things) then you're acting irresponsible and are more than likely asking to run into trouble in the future. whether its short or long term results.
i understand some of you ran into problems, but enevitably you are putting a level of tune into a street car that was originally and only designed for RACE usage.
this is the same as those guys who spend thousands of dollars to have a "race" engine built for their car, adding short skirted, high compression pistons w/ only two ringlands, titanium valve sspring retainers, lightweight stainless valves, then drive the thing around on the street and spin up 10K-20K miles on the engine (at 6,000-10,000RPMs) from stoplight to stoplight and then wonder why their engine grenaded.
the engine with that type of build WILL make great HP#'s, but it wasn't designed to go 100,000/50,000 or even 10,000 miles. the tolerences were built "loose" so it would make more HP...but stuff has more movement when its built "loose" making stuff liable to wear out more quickly.
many aftermarket pieces are built to a "race" standard (derived off race bread parts) and long term durability is not built into the design. but most manufacturers won't tell you that, cus they want to sell you X-brand pistons, or Y-brand manifold...etc.
with all that said; i am sorry you ran into a problem. BUT if you had really resaerched it, you should have done some things to prevent a mishap (incliding anything that could have been done wrong at any stage in the tune..not saying that there was though) similar to what Egan explained above. He DID see a problem, and left unnoticed, he too may have been posting a "my motor's dead" thread, but he made a wise decision to invest in safeguards to prevent a mishap.
everyone is quick to point fingers, but they never honestly want to examine thier own course of actions. do it, and many times you can learn from details you've overlooked previously.
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Sorry, but I can't agree with your statements here. There is a HUGE difference between a race only tune and a tune meant for a street car. A street tune should inherently have many built in safety blankets and should be designed to make the engine last. I agree with you that having a boost and EGT gauge is a good thing but only for situations where something goes wrong mechanically to throw off the tune/engine. When someone gets a street car tuned by a reputable shop, its the tuner's responsibility to make sure the car is running safely and will last assuming no mechanical issues such as loose hoses or vaccuum leaks. And even in the case of such issues, the tune should have failsafes built in to react propperly to such conditions. The OEM ECU has many features that are designed just for this type of thing, but the tuner must use these features propperly and design their tune around the possibility of something going wrong. Simply because a customer doesn't have an EGT gauge doesn't mean that its the customer's fault the the tune is extremely lean and dangerous. This is especially true for basic setups like TBE.
But hey... that's just my point of view.
But hey... that's just my point of view.
Originally Posted by EQ Tuning
Sorry, but I can't agree with your statements here. There is a HUGE difference between a race only tune and a tune meant for a street car. A street tune should inherently have many built in safety blankets and should be designed to make the engine last. I agree with you that having a boost and EGT gauge is a good thing but only for situations where something goes wrong mechanically to throw off the tune/engine. When someone gets a street car tuned by a reputable shop, its the tuner's responsibility to make sure the car is running safely and will last assuming no mechanical issues such as loose hoses or vaccuum leaks. And even in the case of such issues, the tune should have failsafes built in to react propperly to such conditions. The OEM ECU has many features that are designed just for this type of thing, but the tuner must use these features propperly and design their tune around the possibility of something going wrong. Simply because a customer doesn't have an EGT gauge doesn't mean that its the customer's fault the the tune is extremely lean and dangerous. This is especially true for basic setups like TBE.
But hey... that's just my point of view.
But hey... that's just my point of view.
that's like someone having this monsterous 1100hp engine installed into an otherwise stock car then blaming the tuner for the OE brakes not being able to haul the thing down from 128 to 0 when granma jenkins pulls out of her driveway in front of him.
or not being able to make a turn cus he's going 80 and its a hairpin and his OE suspension/tires can't physically make it around that corner.
this may sound stupid but i know of a guy who boosted his car, drove 110 mph, nailed some lady and hurt her pretty bad. he then SUED the manufacturer of the compressor kit cus it was "their fault" that his car could get to 110 so quickly. the court hearing is still going on, and this happened over 3 years ago!
i realize, the tuner is responsible to provide the highest level and quality of sevice/tune they're providing, BUT as an owner, you are assuming some risk by handing them a lump of cash and tellign them what you "want." many times what the customer "wants" and what is BEST for the situation is not always met.
my opinion is based from working in the aftermarket performance industry for over 8 years and working with customers whom want the BIGGEST, BADDEST, SHINIEST stuff their scrounged up $1000 will buy. but they never want to throw down on the unseen "ugly" stuff that is essential to keeping the vehicle and engine safe and without catastrophic failure.
my point was to not jump on the finger pointing bandwagon, assess your actions/choices and evaluate if there is anything that can be done froma personal level that would better that same situation in the future.
First of all I never intended my post to place blame on any one particular person/shop but just a recount of my experience. In hindsight I probably could have left names out of the original post so as to not give the impression that I am flaming any one person/shop. If that is the impression that was given off then I apologize.
I think if you read my original post you will see that I do take some responsibility for not installing the appropiate gauges in my car to monitor the tune. I think I stated that as my #1 lesson learned from this experience. In my defense though I really didn't think that installing a tbe and reflash consituted the need for extra monitoring other than the boost gauge I had. Obvisously I was wrong. However, I have been fortunate to have the opportunity to own and modify many cars, including 4 other turbo cars. In each case I did not add an EGT guage until AFTER I upgraded the turbo. Were my other cars running lean and I didn't know, could be but I never blew a headgasket on those motors either.
At any rate, the purpose of my post was to share my experiences so that others might benefit. I think that is the purpose of these automotive forums is to learn from others and add value when you can.
-Darren.
I think if you read my original post you will see that I do take some responsibility for not installing the appropiate gauges in my car to monitor the tune. I think I stated that as my #1 lesson learned from this experience. In my defense though I really didn't think that installing a tbe and reflash consituted the need for extra monitoring other than the boost gauge I had. Obvisously I was wrong. However, I have been fortunate to have the opportunity to own and modify many cars, including 4 other turbo cars. In each case I did not add an EGT guage until AFTER I upgraded the turbo. Were my other cars running lean and I didn't know, could be but I never blew a headgasket on those motors either.
At any rate, the purpose of my post was to share my experiences so that others might benefit. I think that is the purpose of these automotive forums is to learn from others and add value when you can.
-Darren.
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Originally Posted by pozzi
that's like someone having this monsterous 1100hp engine installed into an otherwise stock car then blaming the tuner for the OE brakes not being able to haul the thing down from 128 to 0 when granma jenkins pulls out of her driveway in front of him.
or not being able to make a turn cus he's going 80 and its a hairpin and his OE suspension/tires can't physically make it around that corner.
or not being able to make a turn cus he's going 80 and its a hairpin and his OE suspension/tires can't physically make it around that corner.
I do understand what you're saying. Some customers come in wanting "the most power possible." But in cases like this its still up to the tuner to either explain the limitations to the customer or turn him away. I've had several customers come in wanting the most out of their car. After I explain to them what that means for the longevity of the motor and what the power difference would end up being in the end to make the motor last, every single such customer opts for the safe tune. I actually refuse to tune a street driven car past what I consider to be safe. That being said, this customer and the others I've seen with bad tunes never requested an aggressive tune. Darren actually specifically requested a conservative tune and ended up with 11.6:1 a/f and a blown motor after only a couple thousand miles. I don't like to place blame, but in this case its fairly obvious that someone messed up and it wasn't the customer. If a customer requests a conservative tune and the tuner sees that there is no EGT gauge installed, there is no way the tuner should let the car leave the shop running that type of a/f. Its just irresponsible.
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Originally Posted by EQ Tuning
If a customer requests a conservative tune and the tuner sees that there is no EGT gauge installed, there is no way the tuner should let the car leave the shop running that type of a/f. Its just irresponsible.
Those basic mods with a safe tune won't even hurt the longevity of a motor very much if any, the way that people drive most STi's will hurt the longevity of the motor far more then those modifications would, and I just don't see the need to have an EGT Probe unless you track the **** out of your car with those mods... That's just me though
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i agree completely with the comments being made that a tune for a basic setup should inherrently be safe regardless of the owners gauges and data logging equipment. that's what we pay for.
here are some thoughts i have, and i was very **** about these things with my own car and believe that's why i had 0 problems with it. spark plugs, fuel filter, air filter, oil, etc... IMHO should be changed at even more frequent intervals than the service manual states.
my logic is pretty simple. more power = more heat and friction, the oil needs to be changed accordingly. more power = more fuel to maintain higher a/f ratio, the fuel filter needs to be changed more frequently. more power = more airflow, the air filter needs to be cahnged more frequently. and so on...
here are some thoughts i have, and i was very **** about these things with my own car and believe that's why i had 0 problems with it. spark plugs, fuel filter, air filter, oil, etc... IMHO should be changed at even more frequent intervals than the service manual states.
my logic is pretty simple. more power = more heat and friction, the oil needs to be changed accordingly. more power = more fuel to maintain higher a/f ratio, the fuel filter needs to be changed more frequently. more power = more airflow, the air filter needs to be cahnged more frequently. and so on...
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Russ,
Regular maintance is always a great thing but sadly it won't make up for a tune like the one in question. But I do agree with you that paying close attention to maintanance is a very important part of maintaining a reliable modified car.
Regular maintance is always a great thing but sadly it won't make up for a tune like the one in question. But I do agree with you that paying close attention to maintanance is a very important part of maintaining a reliable modified car.
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Ed, thanks for the response. My concern is that I have seen a tune go bad. My '03 wrx did not exhibit the issues it had for more than 4 months. Then suddenly it was off until Nate reflashed the ecu. Then it ran flawless for 7 months when I traded it inand returned it to stock. What would cause this. An ECU does not have a rotating hard drive, and neither does my MP3 player; but the MP3 player also has messed up on me before. Obviously it is not only S2 that has had complaints and they were not the one's that tuned my '03 originally. That was another bay area tuner that used to have the best reputation around.
With regards to gauges, I can't imagine ever tuning any car without supporting gauges. Then you have no idea how your car is behaving. I had them in my '03 and have them in my '05.
I also would request as a friend to Nate and Joe that the blame game come to an end. Enough has been said about this subject from all parties. Those are the types of issues that are better handled in private and not on a public forum. Davis STI has expressed this as well as it was not his intention for this to be another S2 bashing thread.
My interest in this thread came about due to my experience with the bay area tuner that is similar to issues stated here. I can't state as to how that tune went bad, but it did. After watching both that tuner and Nate tune, neither of them, in my opinion, were negligent in how they tune. They were both very meticulous and showed me all the data from the tune: boost, wgdc, afr.........etc. All seemed well within the standards posted here. That said, how did my old '03 end up with a messed up tune when it ran fine for several months?
I'm not sold that everyone with a modifed car shouldn't have their tunes checked every so often, especially if you have no gauges or other means to monitor the motor.
With regards to gauges, I can't imagine ever tuning any car without supporting gauges. Then you have no idea how your car is behaving. I had them in my '03 and have them in my '05.
I also would request as a friend to Nate and Joe that the blame game come to an end. Enough has been said about this subject from all parties. Those are the types of issues that are better handled in private and not on a public forum. Davis STI has expressed this as well as it was not his intention for this to be another S2 bashing thread.
My interest in this thread came about due to my experience with the bay area tuner that is similar to issues stated here. I can't state as to how that tune went bad, but it did. After watching both that tuner and Nate tune, neither of them, in my opinion, were negligent in how they tune. They were both very meticulous and showed me all the data from the tune: boost, wgdc, afr.........etc. All seemed well within the standards posted here. That said, how did my old '03 end up with a messed up tune when it ran fine for several months?
I'm not sold that everyone with a modifed car shouldn't have their tunes checked every so often, especially if you have no gauges or other means to monitor the motor.
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Originally Posted by GT35 STI
And on that note, I would definately swing it by and have Ed or Paul take a look at it to be safe
Every now and then if I'm doing canyon roads or getting on it alot on my 100 octane tune, I'll see close to 900 C* other then that I never go above 850
Every now and then if I'm doing canyon roads or getting on it alot on my 100 octane tune, I'll see close to 900 C* other then that I never go above 850
The 1000C + was due to a mechanical problem which was fixed almost immediately. The 840C is right where my WRX was and it was putting down very similar numbers to my STi. My STi only has a TBE and ECUtek reflash.Besides, there is no way I'm putting my car on the dyno until Paul gets some shorter tie-downs. I really don't want to bend my aluminum lateral links.
hint, hintedit: I should probably clarify that the 840C is a max number at WOT. Cruising around on the freeway is in the 700's IIRC. My AFR's are below 11:1 at WOT, and I think more like 10.5:1. I'll have to dig up my dyno charts...
Last edited by Egan; Feb 7, 2006 at 08:46 PM.
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Originally Posted by doubleurx
Ed, thanks for the response. My concern is that I have seen a tune go bad. My '03 wrx did not exhibit the issues it had for more than 4 months. Then suddenly it was off until Nate reflashed the ecu. Then it ran flawless for 7 months when I traded it inand returned it to stock. What would cause this. An ECU does not have a rotating hard drive, and neither does my MP3 player; but the MP3 player also has messed up on me before. Obviously it is not only S2 that has had complaints and they were not the one's that tuned my '03 originally. That was another bay area tuner that used to have the best reputation around.
With regards to gauges, I can't imagine ever tuning any car without supporting gauges. Then you have no idea how your car is behaving. I had them in my '03 and have them in my '05.
I also would request as a friend to Nate and Joe that the blame game come to an end. Enough has been said about this subject from all parties. Those are the types of issues that are better handled in private and not on a public forum. Davis STI has expressed this as well as it was not his intention for this to be another S2 bashing thread.
My interest in this thread came about due to my experience with the bay area tuner that is similar to issues stated here. I can't state as to how that tune went bad, but it did. After watching both that tuner and Nate tune, neither of them, in my opinion, were negligent in how they tune. They were both very meticulous and showed me all the data from the tune: boost, wgdc, afr.........etc. All seemed well within the standards posted here. That said, how did my old '03 end up with a messed up tune when it ran fine for several months?
I'm not sold that everyone with a modifed car shouldn't have their tunes checked every so often, especially if you have no gauges or other means to monitor the motor.
With regards to gauges, I can't imagine ever tuning any car without supporting gauges. Then you have no idea how your car is behaving. I had them in my '03 and have them in my '05.
I also would request as a friend to Nate and Joe that the blame game come to an end. Enough has been said about this subject from all parties. Those are the types of issues that are better handled in private and not on a public forum. Davis STI has expressed this as well as it was not his intention for this to be another S2 bashing thread.
My interest in this thread came about due to my experience with the bay area tuner that is similar to issues stated here. I can't state as to how that tune went bad, but it did. After watching both that tuner and Nate tune, neither of them, in my opinion, were negligent in how they tune. They were both very meticulous and showed me all the data from the tune: boost, wgdc, afr.........etc. All seemed well within the standards posted here. That said, how did my old '03 end up with a messed up tune when it ran fine for several months?
I'm not sold that everyone with a modifed car shouldn't have their tunes checked every so often, especially if you have no gauges or other means to monitor the motor.
That being said, my intention here has nothing to do with bashing anyone or pointing fingers. If my statements came off that way, I apologize. I just get very frustrated when people spend their hard earned money and recieve sub-par service/results. I also get very frustrated when I see a blown engine that could have run perfectly for another 100k if the tuner was more responsible.
I don't want this to happen to anyone else and that is why I think its important for people to be aware of these cases and get their cars checked out to make sure they don't have the same problems. And while I understand that Nate is your friend, I don't feel that its appropriate to keep this stuff in the dark while others are likely experiencing the same problems without knowing about it.
Like I said, I don't care who's fault it is, what's done is done. I just want people to be aware and get their cars checked out before more damage is done.
Thanks
Last edited by MethodBuilt; Feb 7, 2006 at 09:14 PM.