Another S^2 tune gone bad... :(
Hello all,
I really don't post much but I thought I would share my story in the hopes that someone else might benefit from it. This is in now way meant to flame anyone but just a recount of what happened to me in the hope that others might benefit from it. Sorry for being long winded but it makes me feel better to type this out. Note: I am not the most mechanically inclined so if I am off on some of the details then too bad....
About 6 months ago, I took my 05 STI into S^2 to get some parts installed and a reflash(ECUtek). They installed my intake, catted dp, cat-back and upgraded fuel pump with no issue and Nate dyno tuned my car. I asked for a conservative pump gas tune ( I have the PM's to prove it) and was assured that all would be well. I came back to pick up the car, it sounded and looked great. Nate had left for the day but Joe handed me a dyno sheet and my car had put down 270 whp/280 tq. I wasn't give my a/f numbers but then I didn't ask for them either, I just assumed all was good. I know, I know my mistake.
About 1 month ago, the mod bug started to itch once again. I had noticed my car didn't feel as fast as it used to but I just thought I was getting used to the power and wanted more. I started researching larger turbos and different EM's. Its seemed liked Cobb AP was the way to go as it lets you run multiple maps and most of the larger turbo solutions don't really make full power unless they are running a race gas map. At any rate I scheduled an appointment this past Saturday at DBTuned, I was planning to have Ed(Equilibrum Tuning) do a protune pump gas and race gas map for me. My rational was to occasionally run the race gas map on my current setup to satisfy my more power itch while I continue to research which turbo I wanted to go with.
This past Saturday I arrive at DBTuned and Paul(DBTuned) throws my car on the dyno for some baseline pulls. It puts down 230 whp/ 260 tq, mind you this is with no changes to my car since I left S^2 6 months ago. This just happens to be the same exact dyno my car was tuned on before, now I realize you can't compare as there are many different conditions, calibrations, etc but the difference was significant to warrant further research. After some more logging of my current setup it comes to find out that my car as tuned very aggressively and was running really, really lean. My a/f was 11.5 at redline and pushing 20 psi. This was causing major knocking and detonation which in turned caused the ECU to pull back lots of timing. Thus resulting in my stock like numbers even though I had a tbe and reflash. Paul and Ed even pulled up my old file and showed me how much my car had lost since the last time it was on that dyno.
At Paul and Ed's suggestion I decided to do a compression and leakdown test to see what negative effects of running this lean could have on my motor for the past 6 months. The compression test showed 120-122 on the driver side cylinders and 110-112 on the passenger side. The leakdown test showed leakage in 3 of the 4 cylinders and traces of oil was found in my coolant. Both of them guessed that I had a blown headgasket at the least, with some potential of further damage to the pistons and rings. There would be no way to tell for sure until the motor was pulled and torn down. After hear this news, I had Ed still go ahead and put a conservative pump gas map on the car. The Cobb AP overwrote
my ECUteck reflash from S^2, good riddance. Funny even Ed's conservative map made more power and torque than I came in with. When I left the car put down 250 whp/270 tq. That is with a much safer a/f and running LESS boost!
Now that I know my motor is living on borrowed time, I guess it will only be a matter of time before I drop in the Gruppe-s Stage I short block. Might as well get the Perrin GT30 rotated kit and FMIC while I am at it. Funny, I always thought I
would blow up my stock motor from making too much hp, not making too little!
Here are a few things I learned from this experience:
1) If you are going to modify your car get the appropriate gauges installed first, boost and EGT at a minimum. No matter what the tuner tells you can verify for yourself if there is any problems. That way you can take it back hopefully
before any long term damage can occur.
2) Ed and Paul are great guys. I personally found them very professional, knowledgeable, meticulous and willing to take the time to explain in layman terms every step of what they are doing. Much thanks to the both of you.
3) Even if you think your car is running well, as I did, it might be wise to just get it checked every once in a while to make sure everything is in working order. Sounds simple but my car was showing it was boosting fine and "felt" fine but
putting it on the dyno told the truth.
4) People always tell you "If you want to play be prepared to pay" which is true, I will add to this if you are married be prepared to pay double. Because I am sure whatever this new motor/turbo cost me I will also have to purchase a commensurate amount of living room furniture, or new bathroom tile, or hardwood flooring. Which will additionally blow as I will be spending all my weekends
installing all this crap instead of driving my newly built STI!
Thanks for listening.
-Darren.
I really don't post much but I thought I would share my story in the hopes that someone else might benefit from it. This is in now way meant to flame anyone but just a recount of what happened to me in the hope that others might benefit from it. Sorry for being long winded but it makes me feel better to type this out. Note: I am not the most mechanically inclined so if I am off on some of the details then too bad....
About 6 months ago, I took my 05 STI into S^2 to get some parts installed and a reflash(ECUtek). They installed my intake, catted dp, cat-back and upgraded fuel pump with no issue and Nate dyno tuned my car. I asked for a conservative pump gas tune ( I have the PM's to prove it) and was assured that all would be well. I came back to pick up the car, it sounded and looked great. Nate had left for the day but Joe handed me a dyno sheet and my car had put down 270 whp/280 tq. I wasn't give my a/f numbers but then I didn't ask for them either, I just assumed all was good. I know, I know my mistake.
About 1 month ago, the mod bug started to itch once again. I had noticed my car didn't feel as fast as it used to but I just thought I was getting used to the power and wanted more. I started researching larger turbos and different EM's. Its seemed liked Cobb AP was the way to go as it lets you run multiple maps and most of the larger turbo solutions don't really make full power unless they are running a race gas map. At any rate I scheduled an appointment this past Saturday at DBTuned, I was planning to have Ed(Equilibrum Tuning) do a protune pump gas and race gas map for me. My rational was to occasionally run the race gas map on my current setup to satisfy my more power itch while I continue to research which turbo I wanted to go with.
This past Saturday I arrive at DBTuned and Paul(DBTuned) throws my car on the dyno for some baseline pulls. It puts down 230 whp/ 260 tq, mind you this is with no changes to my car since I left S^2 6 months ago. This just happens to be the same exact dyno my car was tuned on before, now I realize you can't compare as there are many different conditions, calibrations, etc but the difference was significant to warrant further research. After some more logging of my current setup it comes to find out that my car as tuned very aggressively and was running really, really lean. My a/f was 11.5 at redline and pushing 20 psi. This was causing major knocking and detonation which in turned caused the ECU to pull back lots of timing. Thus resulting in my stock like numbers even though I had a tbe and reflash. Paul and Ed even pulled up my old file and showed me how much my car had lost since the last time it was on that dyno.
At Paul and Ed's suggestion I decided to do a compression and leakdown test to see what negative effects of running this lean could have on my motor for the past 6 months. The compression test showed 120-122 on the driver side cylinders and 110-112 on the passenger side. The leakdown test showed leakage in 3 of the 4 cylinders and traces of oil was found in my coolant. Both of them guessed that I had a blown headgasket at the least, with some potential of further damage to the pistons and rings. There would be no way to tell for sure until the motor was pulled and torn down. After hear this news, I had Ed still go ahead and put a conservative pump gas map on the car. The Cobb AP overwrote
my ECUteck reflash from S^2, good riddance. Funny even Ed's conservative map made more power and torque than I came in with. When I left the car put down 250 whp/270 tq. That is with a much safer a/f and running LESS boost!
Now that I know my motor is living on borrowed time, I guess it will only be a matter of time before I drop in the Gruppe-s Stage I short block. Might as well get the Perrin GT30 rotated kit and FMIC while I am at it. Funny, I always thought I
would blow up my stock motor from making too much hp, not making too little!
Here are a few things I learned from this experience:
1) If you are going to modify your car get the appropriate gauges installed first, boost and EGT at a minimum. No matter what the tuner tells you can verify for yourself if there is any problems. That way you can take it back hopefully
before any long term damage can occur.
2) Ed and Paul are great guys. I personally found them very professional, knowledgeable, meticulous and willing to take the time to explain in layman terms every step of what they are doing. Much thanks to the both of you.
3) Even if you think your car is running well, as I did, it might be wise to just get it checked every once in a while to make sure everything is in working order. Sounds simple but my car was showing it was boosting fine and "felt" fine but
putting it on the dyno told the truth.
4) People always tell you "If you want to play be prepared to pay" which is true, I will add to this if you are married be prepared to pay double. Because I am sure whatever this new motor/turbo cost me I will also have to purchase a commensurate amount of living room furniture, or new bathroom tile, or hardwood flooring. Which will additionally blow as I will be spending all my weekends
installing all this crap instead of driving my newly built STI!
Thanks for listening.
-Darren.
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Hi Darren,
I'm sorry I had to bring you bad news about your previous tune and your motor. But atleast now you have some time to figure out your swap plans instead of having the motor completely go out on you w/o expecting it.
To clarify on the S^2 tune, it was actually running 11.6-11.7:1 by redline. Boost was hitting 20psi and tapering off to 15psi by redline and the ECU was pulling atleast 5-6 degrees of timing in response to knock. This was also very evident by the dips in the dyno plot.
You current tune is running 10.6:1 at redline, hitting a max of 18.5psi and knock free while still making significantly more power/torque. With any luck the engine should last you a while longer on this tune.
Good luck with your swap and large turbo setup
. I'll keep you informed on my impressions of Perrin's GT30r kit as I work with it on my project 06 STI.
Thanks
I'm sorry I had to bring you bad news about your previous tune and your motor. But atleast now you have some time to figure out your swap plans instead of having the motor completely go out on you w/o expecting it.
To clarify on the S^2 tune, it was actually running 11.6-11.7:1 by redline. Boost was hitting 20psi and tapering off to 15psi by redline and the ECU was pulling atleast 5-6 degrees of timing in response to knock. This was also very evident by the dips in the dyno plot.
You current tune is running 10.6:1 at redline, hitting a max of 18.5psi and knock free while still making significantly more power/torque. With any luck the engine should last you a while longer on this tune.
Good luck with your swap and large turbo setup
. I'll keep you informed on my impressions of Perrin's GT30r kit as I work with it on my project 06 STI.Thanks
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Just as a side note, not all S^2 tunes are dangerous. I've had quite a few people come in to get their tunes checked out and I'd say about 50-60% of the cars are atleast running safely. While improvements could be made to their current tunes, in such cases I usually suggest that people wait untill they decide to change their mods before getting a re-tune. The other ~40% have exhibited very similar traits: too lean for pump gas (11.4-11.8:1), excessive knocking, pulling a lot of timing and high EGT's as a result. The powerband is also not nearly as smooth as it can be and overall power/torque is low for the setup. For such cars I generally recommend a compression and leak down test and then an immediate re-tune.
I'm a little puzzled as to why about half of the cars seem to be tuned safely and the other half very irresponsibly. I'm not too sure what to make of this, but that's what I've observed so far.
Thanks
I'm a little puzzled as to why about half of the cars seem to be tuned safely and the other half very irresponsibly. I'm not too sure what to make of this, but that's what I've observed so far.
Thanks
Originally Posted by EQ Tuning
Just as a side note, not all S^2 tunes are dangerous. I've had quite a few people come in to get their tunes checked out and I'd say about 50-60% of the cars are atleast running safely. While improvements could be made to their current tunes, in such cases I usually suggest that people wait untill they decide to change their mods before getting a re-tune. The other ~40% have exhibited very similar traits: too lean for pump gas (11.4-11.8:1), excessive knocking, pulling a lot of timing and high EGT's as a result. The powerband is also not nearly as smooth as it can be and overall power/torque is low for the setup. For such cars I generally recommend a compression and leak down test and then an immediate re-tune.
I'm a little puzzled as to why about half of the cars seem to be tuned safely and the other half very irresponsibly. I'm not too sure what to make of this, but that's what I've observed so far.
Thanks
I'm a little puzzled as to why about half of the cars seem to be tuned safely and the other half very irresponsibly. I'm not too sure what to make of this, but that's what I've observed so far.
Thanks
No offense intended, Ed, but if I got my car tuned there, I'd get it re-tuned by another place NOW. If half the cars aren't tuned correctly, would you, if you own one of the S^2 tuned cars, take a 50% chance?
Just my 2 cents....
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Originally Posted by doughboy
No offense intended, Ed, but if I got my car tuned there, I'd get it re-tuned by another place NOW. If half the cars aren't tuned correctly, would you, if you own one of the S^2 tuned cars, take a 50% chance?
Just my 2 cents....
Just my 2 cents....
punctuation, >, you,
Ed said that he does not recommend that the cars he sees with a safe tune spend the money on a new tune right now.
Troll
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Originally Posted by EQ Tuning
I'm a little puzzled as to why about half of the cars seem to be tuned safely and the other half very irresponsibly. I'm not too sure what to make of this, but that's what I've observed so far.
Thanks
Thanks
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Originally Posted by doughboy
No offense intended, Ed, but if I got my car tuned there, I'd get it re-tuned by another place NOW. If half the cars aren't tuned correctly, would you, if you own one of the S^2 tuned cars, take a 50% chance?
Just my 2 cents....
Just my 2 cents....
No offense taken. I'm just pointing out that its not necessary for all S^2 cars to get re-tuned. I still, however, strongly suggest that any car tuned at S^2 atleast get their tune checked out by a reputable tuner to make sure their car is running safely.
Thanks
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FYI, I've been offering free diagnostic pulls for those who don't mind coming out to Davis and I can probably offer a similar service on DB's dyno for a fee. Please feel free to e-mail or PM me if you'd like to get your car checked out.
Thanks
Thanks
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Originally Posted by GT35 STI
Well I know Nate was using pre-made maps on every car(I.E. All STi's with intake/exhaust get this map) then I thought he was adjusting them accordingly, maybe he wasn't? and that's why 1/2 of the cars are fine? since every car is different, they are going to react different to the same fuel map... so on some cars it worked but on others it didn't? Dunno for sure though just an idea
Thanks
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Originally Posted by EQ Tuning
Custom dyno tuning inherently includes adjustments appropriate for the specific car. While what you propose could explain the results I've observed, it would also mean that the S^2 custom dyno tuning service was grossly misrepresented in its very essence. I don't think I can jump to such a conclusion without more evidence, so I'll leave it at that.
Thanks
Thanks

:ywia:
Originally Posted by dz
reading > you
punctuation, >, you,
Ed said that he does not recommend that the cars he sees with a safe tune spend the money on a new tune right now.
punctuation, >, you,
Ed said that he does not recommend that the cars he sees with a safe tune spend the money on a new tune right now.
as for the "reading, >, you" your syntax is wrong n00b, irregardless of whatever sarcasm you might have tried to put into that weaksauce slam.
INFERENCE > YOU
while an assumption was made on my part, half of the cars, whether they were examined/inspected by Ed or not, COULD have a bad tune. read b/t the lines. we all know Ed is being diplomatic.



