One of my best friends was in the reserves and got drafted to go to Iraq in 2 or 3 months. Hes starting his combat training in Texas starting in Feb. So I personally don't like Bush for that reason. Sending one of my homies out to post war bulls***.

 

FOr it depends on the conflict...

If it was WW1 or WW2, i'd volunteer... But every conflict after that has been over bull****. Communism was harmless, i'm sorry... anyone who's taken an economics class will know that communist countries cannot survive because humans are imperfect... Humanitary Aid conflicts like Bosnia/Serbia and Somalia turn pretty sour, espically Somalia... what did we learn? Nothing... what we should have learned was "lets not go where we aren't wanted..."

We aren't wanted in Iraq... we aren't wanted in Afghanistan...

If we found Bin Laden, I'd be fine with going to Afghanistan... but it was obvious that we weren't going to find him..

If we found WMD in Iraq, I'd be fine with going there also, ONLY because WMD was the reason we were told we are going... but we haven't found anything at all... This i had feeling was going to happen.

So, Where is homeland security? I don't see new safety guidlines or programs being instituted... only programs that are unconstitutional, and in violation of basic, fundamental rights of US citizens. Patriot Act and Guantanamo Bay can be thrown in here also, as there are Citizens being held there, without charge, attorneys, trials, or anything of the sort... (the rest are fair game i guess as they aren't citzens)

I am NOT happy with Bush. I was in favor of him in the last election, because i couldn't stand Al Gore. I wasnt old enough to vote then, but I am now, and It won't be for Bush.

This administration is way out of line, and I hope they aren't there in Jan 2005.

-Gagan

 

don't get confussed... your buddy DIDN'T get drafted Titan if he was in the reserves....he's doing his job! Don't think that because you sign up for the reserves you don't go on deployment. Most of the time the reserves go first so the armed force don't exhaust the elite forces/units...they save them until theyr'e absolutely needed.

 

The future of this country is in sad shape. That's all I have to say.

 

Believing you can support a government in the military and think it is an apolitical behavior is the most delusional statement I've ever heard. EVER. You might follow orders in an obedient fashion with this justification but you cannot deny that military action is purely motivated by politics and politics ALWAYS has a moral impetus and consequence. By being an executor of those politically moral decisions you take first hand part in realizing the objectives therein. There is no honor, pride or excuse in obedience to orders for its own sake. "I was only following orders". Isn't that an excuse we, as a country, have rejected before when our enemies' soldier have used it?

jason

 

Although i'd NEVER give out names:

when we had our last election a few years ago everyone in my ranger lrsd company literally got the **** smoked out of them for 24hrs straight doing all kinds of painful exercises with telephone polls, flutter kicks, russian twists, pushups etc etc etc until they convinced the chain of command they were voting for bush. At this time bush was promising higher pay for soldiers, airmen, marines and sailors. They'd force you to drink water until you literally punked to 'make sure you were hydrated' and continue with the smoking until you had thoughts of going AWOL. they did this to a handfuls hardheaded guys until it was time to fill out the ballots. If you voted for someone other than BUSH it would be your ***...i mean seriously. they'd have you working 120hr weeks if it was up to the chain of command and consder you a **** bag from that day forward.

Those men could have voted for Gore but believe me YOU wouldn't have because the pain to follow would be too great.

EDIT: my point is you DON'T control your thoughts in the military. If i told my soldiers to clean the latrine they'd do it or i'd make their lives a living hell and have done so before. You do this because you WANT them to clear that enemy bunker without second thought of death in time of war. You spit out a command to a fire team and they'd BETTER do it or else i'll enforce UCMJ action and screw their lives over forever. Therefore, you WILL follow orders or else... it's very apolitical unless you're wearing a high rank on your chevrons

eric

can't this thread just die!?

 

You miss the entire point. I'm not talking about personal reasons. I'm talking about behavior. The fact is, the actions are focused on one politic over another and one morality over another, no matter the smaller, personal reasons. You cannot remove the original impetus that created the orders and the realized effect of those orderes carried out. Not matter what people want to think, a soldier is not a "means". A soldier is the one who executes an "end".

If you want to dissallow personal thinking for the cohesion necessary for military success, then we are denying our own American sense of democracy and the self-worship that comes with it. The irony is that I would support the destruction of such democracy, since it broods selfish individuality. But don't you find a disconcerting irony in that we need to shove democracy aside to preserve it? The Enlightenment philosophers who shaped Modern democracy are turning over in their graves. You are saying "I must be hypocrite to preserve my way of life". How honorable is that? How moral is that?

FWIW - Please, military folks, don't resort to the "I put my life on the line for you!". You don't. You aren't trying to preserve life the way I think it should be. No, really. I don't believe that personal freedom and individuality are important. Ultimate freedom is ultimate slavery because it leads to a selfish ideology that breeds an entropic society where we cannot get along because everyone feels as right and righteous as every other. History proves it, especially in this fine country we live in. I don't live that way. I won't fight for it. I believe in giving up ones rights and claims for the love of others. You can't fight for that. That would be hypocritical. I'm not trying to pinch a nerve here, I'm just saying that such an argument won't work with me. Were we conquered by an enemy force you'd find me as one of the people least affected by it.


jason

 

so.. how bout them mets !

/me tries to get the thread to die

 

all i hear is blah blah blah im a stupid cherry!

 

Aw, c'mon - there's no need for name calling. Can't we even discuss issues and current events without making online enemies out of our fellow i-Club members?

Anyway, it's time for to watch Speed.

--
0==WW==0
"…axles of evil…" - george w. bush

 

You need to join Baic Chat through AIM once in awhile... you'd realize that mmboost, davheed and myself are playing around with eachother and are cool with eachother too.

I was NEVER brainwashed either and coasted through the military like it was a joke by doing what i was told...you on the other hand are funnay to me. Thanks for making me laugh

Cheers&Enjoy!

 

OMG... I said it simply, yet other people still missed the whole point of the statement.

Okay, let me say things in a way you will understand.

1) the military is made up of members of American Society, and thus are representative of the mores and standards of that society. While the military does have a distinct culture all its own, its members come from all walks of life.

2) the military has a singular duty: to protect and defend the constitution of the United States, against all enemies, foreign and domestic. This is the duty a soldier has above all else.

3) a person VOLUNTEERS to serve in the military and enters into a legal, contractual obligation to serve in any way that is deemed LEGAL by the elected officials of the country, and those put in positions of authority above him. A soldier in today's military is not forced to join. A soldier makes a choice to join.

4) every 4 or 8 years, someone else is in the White House, holding the position of Commander in Chief. Along with that fact comes a change in political views. While military members are allowed to vote, they still have to execute the policies of whoever is elected into the Oval Office, and the other elected officials the voters put into office.

5) a soldier has no say in obeying orders that are LEGAL. If a soldier is told to do pushups until he can't move his arms, then he has to, or else face the consequences. However, a soldier has a duty and responsibility to ignore or even outright disobey illegal orders, such as committing murder or stealing. That "I was only obeying orders" argument hasn't been a legal defense in over 30 years.

6) the military is subject to a second, more stringent set of laws called the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Some behavior that is legal under the US Code is not legal under UCMJ. Adultery is not illegal under the laws of the US, but it is illegal under UCMJ, with a punishment that includes a fine and imprisonment in a military prison.

So, explain to me where a soldier is allowed to be POLITICAL when exercising his professional duties, which he has a legal obligation to perform, subject to more stringent rules, TWO codes of law, and international agreements? Remember, a soldier has a singular duty to protect and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. So, how can a soldier support and defend the constitution of the United States, which lays out the foundation of military structure, if that soldier can decide what orders to disregard because they don't agree with his/her political views?

Notice, I'm not saying that a soldier CAN'T be personally political. No where do I mention what a soldier has a right to do when not on duty. A soldier, when not exercising his professional responsibilities, can be as political as he wants. A soldeir can disagree to his/her hearts content when debating politics. However, a soldier does not have the luxury to use his personal political views as an excuse to NOT dispatch his professional duties, the legal obligations which he took upon himself freely, without mental reservations of purpose of evasion.

Here is the text of the oath of office all uniformed servicepersons take when entering the military:

"I, <state name>, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."

A soldier chooses to give up part of his/her individualty in order to serve the greater needs of the community.

Oh, and let's not forget. The military does not do ANYTHING without orders from the CIVILIAN leadership of the US. The military has no opinion when it comes to exercising foreing policy. When I say that the military is apolitical, that's exactly what I mean. The military does the mission the civilian political leaders, elected by voters, give it, regardless of political leanings, personal preferences, or individual opinions.

So when you start pointing fingers at the so-called warmongers in the military, remember this: No soldier WANTS to put him/herself in harms way, s/he is just prepared to do so, at the orders of the civilian leadership that YOU, as a voter, put into office. So when you criticize those soldiers for performing their duties, remember, they are only following the orders of the people YOU put into power. The military does not create policy.

shadowcat

 

And lest you think that I was brainwashed or "bought the BS the military force fed into me", I'm a proud graduate of the University of California at Berkeley, where I recieved my commission. My attitudes are my own. I was an activist for minority rights, I attended meetings and protests, and I'm definitely not conservative anything. I serve in the military because I choose to. I stay in the military because I choose to. I may not agree with everything the past three Administrations have done in the past 12 years, but I still see the need to serve. I do so because not many choose to. I chose to take up a duty, and I'll be damned if I shirk it.

I have a feeling I'm going to have to explain these last two posts again. Let's see if people actually read and understand them, or if they get on the soapbox and preach without having understood what I said.

shadowcat

 

Wow Eric, I can't believe that they would something like you described. That is so hard core! And illegal as hell to boot.

To be honest, I did not vote in 2000. I was in Japan, and did not have a ballot. If I had voted, I must embarrassingly admit that I would have voted for Gore over Bush, but McCain over all.

Since 9-11-2001, I have seen the light. I have realized what traitors the Democrats, and the left really are. They are not leading this country in the right direction. Should the leftists take the reigns of this country, we are in for a world of hurt. Thank goodness the Democratic party, and the left in general are in a state of dissaray. They haven't an ice cubes chance in hell of beating Bush in '04. Especially after the CAPTURE OF SADDAM!!!HOOAH!!!