Proof that Underpowered Cars are still fun
12-13-2012, 07:59 AM
#46
Oh man, I wish I could explain it all. I have a friend who is the same way, has a stock automatic Corolla and because when he stomps on the gas pedal and it doesn't pin him in his seat, he thinks it's "slow" and therefore "not fun" but I doubt he could catch me on the back roads if I were driving his Corolla and he were driving my WRX, or a Corvette. If you think a light, underpowered car is "not fun" then you have not found the fun part of driving yet. Mashing the gas and passing can bring a smile to your face, but passing someone with skill will blow your mind and make you feel like you are one with your vehicle. Passing someone with skill in a car that is far less powerful than the car they are driving shows you that the car really doesn't matter.
Who says "fast" cars are not fun? I don't think anyone is saying that. They are a blast! It's just that "slow" cars are WAAAAAAAY more fun. I had my 2010 Camaro SS/RS "daily driver" sitting in my garage and when I went out for a fun drive, I always ALWAYS took my '93 Justy that cost me $800. Because it was more fun, for me.
The Camaro was a great daily driver because w/ 426hp I could mash around someone before they completed their message and hit "send" without having to try. But for me, the fun part of driving is the trying.
If you take two people with zero track experience to a race track and give one a Z06 and the other a BRZ, the Z06 driver will start out faster because of the car, and then the BRZ driver will eclipse them - because of the car. At some point the BRZ driver will be able to catch the Z06 driver but if you swapped their cars, the person who started out in the Z06 would not have been able to learn enough about the car at the limit - because the limits are so much higher. I know this may seem like crazy talk, but it is true.
Please note that I just used a race track as an example, because it is safer than driving in an "enthusiast" manner than on roads, but these same principles apply to any driving situation. Doesn't just have to be tracks.
Sure, in my example with my Camaro - yes - it's easier to have more power, but that is just because most people drive like **** and the goal is to get around them. Simply trying to one-up each other with power instead of skill just leads to crashes at higher speeds. Easier is not better. It's just easier.
I have a friend who proved this point to someone by out-driving them at Sears in his Silverado 1500 while they were in their C5 Corvette. I had a pic of his truck in the hairpin, leaning so hard that the bed and body were not aligned but I cannot find it. This started with an argument at the track with a fellow who showed up in his Corvette and was pissed off that he was lumped in with all the "slow" cars, you know, since it's arranged by skill and experience instead of HP (HMMM I WONDER WHY THEY DO THAT. HMMM). If he could catch the fellow in the truck, he could be bumped up. He could not, and was not.
But, at the end of the day - drive what you like!!!
Who says "fast" cars are not fun? I don't think anyone is saying that. They are a blast! It's just that "slow" cars are WAAAAAAAY more fun. I had my 2010 Camaro SS/RS "daily driver" sitting in my garage and when I went out for a fun drive, I always ALWAYS took my '93 Justy that cost me $800. Because it was more fun, for me.
The Camaro was a great daily driver because w/ 426hp I could mash around someone before they completed their message and hit "send" without having to try. But for me, the fun part of driving is the trying.
If you take two people with zero track experience to a race track and give one a Z06 and the other a BRZ, the Z06 driver will start out faster because of the car, and then the BRZ driver will eclipse them - because of the car. At some point the BRZ driver will be able to catch the Z06 driver but if you swapped their cars, the person who started out in the Z06 would not have been able to learn enough about the car at the limit - because the limits are so much higher. I know this may seem like crazy talk, but it is true.
Please note that I just used a race track as an example, because it is safer than driving in an "enthusiast" manner than on roads, but these same principles apply to any driving situation. Doesn't just have to be tracks.
Sure, in my example with my Camaro - yes - it's easier to have more power, but that is just because most people drive like **** and the goal is to get around them. Simply trying to one-up each other with power instead of skill just leads to crashes at higher speeds. Easier is not better. It's just easier.
I have a friend who proved this point to someone by out-driving them at Sears in his Silverado 1500 while they were in their C5 Corvette. I had a pic of his truck in the hairpin, leaning so hard that the bed and body were not aligned but I cannot find it. This started with an argument at the track with a fellow who showed up in his Corvette and was pissed off that he was lumped in with all the "slow" cars, you know, since it's arranged by skill and experience instead of HP (HMMM I WONDER WHY THEY DO THAT. HMMM). If he could catch the fellow in the truck, he could be bumped up. He could not, and was not.
But, at the end of the day - drive what you like!!!
At our EQ track days I personally started getting a bit bored with my stage 2 STI on R compounds. Luckily I got the chance to drive a nicely set up 450whp STI as well as a C6 Z06. And I have to tell you, those cars kept me on the seat of my pants and were a lot more exciting to push around the track. On a previous track event I was in my 2.0l wrx wagon and passing a couple Porsche GT3 RS's. Yes it was fun and felt good to be able to beat a car like that in a wagon, but still not nearly as fun as driving the faster cars on their respective edges. The Z06 was the one that really kept me on my toes since it was on the stock run flats and tried to kill me any time I got a bit too comfortable.
-- Ed
12-13-2012, 09:24 AM
#48
I tend to agree with slug on this one actually. Don't get me wrong, slow cars can be a blast... My first car was a 92 Camry and I pushed the crap out of that thing and pulled away from a lot of "sporty" cars in the twisties. It was a lot of fun and most cars with crappy tires and suspension can be a blast to drive without much power. But if you take one driver who knows what he's doing and put him in a slow car and in a faster car, clearly he will turn faster lap times in the faster car (your BRX vs C6 example). Both will be fun to drive, but in the end the faster car will be, well faster. And in the end, a good driver will usually enjoy pushing the limits of a faster car than a slower car because it does take more skill and more attention to do so.
At our EQ track days I personally started getting a bit bored with my stage 2 STI on R compounds. Luckily I got the chance to drive a nicely set up 450whp STI as well as a C6 Z06. And I have to tell you, those cars kept me on the seat of my pants and were a lot more exciting to push around the track. On a previous track event I was in my 2.0l wrx wagon and passing a couple Porsche GT3 RS's. Yes it was fun and felt good to be able to beat a car like that in a wagon, but still not nearly as fun as driving the faster cars on their respective edges. The Z06 was the one that really kept me on my toes since it was on the stock run flats and tried to kill me any time I got a bit too comfortable.
-- Ed
At our EQ track days I personally started getting a bit bored with my stage 2 STI on R compounds. Luckily I got the chance to drive a nicely set up 450whp STI as well as a C6 Z06. And I have to tell you, those cars kept me on the seat of my pants and were a lot more exciting to push around the track. On a previous track event I was in my 2.0l wrx wagon and passing a couple Porsche GT3 RS's. Yes it was fun and felt good to be able to beat a car like that in a wagon, but still not nearly as fun as driving the faster cars on their respective edges. The Z06 was the one that really kept me on my toes since it was on the stock run flats and tried to kill me any time I got a bit too comfortable.
-- Ed
12-13-2012, 10:03 AM
#49
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I tend to agree with slug on this one actually. Don't get me wrong, slow cars can be a blast... My first car was a 92 Camry and I pushed the crap out of that thing and pulled away from a lot of "sporty" cars in the twisties. It was a lot of fun and most cars with crappy tires and suspension can be a blast to drive without much power. But if you take one driver who knows what he's doing and put him in a slow car and in a faster car, clearly he will turn faster lap times in the faster car (your BRX vs C6 example). Both will be fun to drive, but in the end the faster car will be, well faster. And in the end, a good driver will usually enjoy pushing the limits of a faster car than a slower car because it does take more skill and more attention to do so.
At our EQ track days I personally started getting a bit bored with my stage 2 STI on R compounds. Luckily I got the chance to drive a nicely set up 450whp STI as well as a C6 Z06. And I have to tell you, those cars kept me on the seat of my pants and were a lot more exciting to push around the track. On a previous track event I was in my 2.0l wrx wagon and passing a couple Porsche GT3 RS's. Yes it was fun and felt good to be able to beat a car like that in a wagon, but still not nearly as fun as driving the faster cars on their respective edges. The Z06 was the one that really kept me on my toes since it was on the stock run flats and tried to kill me any time I got a bit too comfortable.
-- Ed
At our EQ track days I personally started getting a bit bored with my stage 2 STI on R compounds. Luckily I got the chance to drive a nicely set up 450whp STI as well as a C6 Z06. And I have to tell you, those cars kept me on the seat of my pants and were a lot more exciting to push around the track. On a previous track event I was in my 2.0l wrx wagon and passing a couple Porsche GT3 RS's. Yes it was fun and felt good to be able to beat a car like that in a wagon, but still not nearly as fun as driving the faster cars on their respective edges. The Z06 was the one that really kept me on my toes since it was on the stock run flats and tried to kill me any time I got a bit too comfortable.
-- Ed
Also it's worthy to consider that people are different. I cannot comprehend how I could get "bored" at Thunderhill in my stock-suspended Bugeye, if I had two track days a month for the next two years and was forced to stay in that car. I am not such a good driver that I have the line "down" and every single lap teaches me something new and is a chance to perfect it. I remember when I used to do 2 track days a month in my 1980 Celica, sometimes I would hold off on mods because I was still learning stuff at the level I was at. I could jump in my friend's 456whp Z06 and sure, yeah - neat, but in no way was I ready for that car, and because of the retardo amount of power it put out, someone would have to be very good at modulating that power to be faster than a car that they could be flat out in. In all the years of driving, car enthusiasm and track days I know 3 people who might have a chance at driving that car well. I know a professional racer/driving instructor who has crashed it 3 times, and turns faster lap times in a car that weighs the same but has less power. But I am sure someone who has a lot of GT4 experience would say he probably just sucks at driving.
Now, someone could take the above paragraph and turn it around to say that I do not like powerful cars or anything else that it's not saying. I thoroughly enjoy driving all cars (well, I drove a PT Cruiser once and it sucked ***) and really enjoy sporting, powerful and especially classic cars. Just to be clear.
Also, I know a guy who got to drive an Elise, but hated it because it was slow. Notice I did not say "I have a friend who got to..." I also do not understand this person, but I tell myself that they just don't get it. Different people have different needs of a car.
No one is saying that more powerful cars are not more fun. In fact, every time someone comes on and takes that stand again, a few people re-iterate that no one said anything about that more powerful cars are not fun. I also do not think that anyone is saying that a more powerful car would not accelerate down a straight faster than a lesser powered car with the same driver. What I am saying is that doesn't matter when you can be held up in your 80hp turd by the driver in the Viper in front of you.
You get it and you had fun in that powerful Z06 because you have taken lesser powered vehicles to the limit in the same exact circumstances and you had not only a good foundation for learning, but actual useful progression of power/capability at the same race track even.
I think this conversation has gotten pretty far off track to the point where whatever I was trying to say has long been lost (you do not NEED more HP to be faster, and in fact it and "more capable cars" are a crutch and impede learning).
Basically what I was talking about was demonstrated at that first EQ track day. I doubt it, but do you remember me out there in my 2002 MR2 on street tires with 87 octane? That car would have been lucky to be putting 100hp down at the wheels, and it weighed around 2100lbs.
12-13-2012, 10:16 AM
#50
Tons of people do, well tons of people that only ever drive in a straight line do. My n/a fc was easily the single most fun vehicle I have ever driven. Enough power to get going but not enough power to get you in trouble unless you were being wayyyyy ****ing stupid. I would rather drive a slow car fast over a fast car slow.
edit: wombatsauce said it perfectly, fast cars are definitely a ton of fun. Especially if you have the skill to utilize that power. Now getting put into something with 80hp that can't turn will suck obviously but put a miata up against say a 500 hp vette and you just might find that the miata will be "more fun" because you can just focus on driving on not wrecking the thing if you get a little to happy with the gas.
edit: wombatsauce said it perfectly, fast cars are definitely a ton of fun. Especially if you have the skill to utilize that power. Now getting put into something with 80hp that can't turn will suck obviously but put a miata up against say a 500 hp vette and you just might find that the miata will be "more fun" because you can just focus on driving on not wrecking the thing if you get a little to happy with the gas.
First off, a straight line is not the only place power is used/needed...I shouldn't have to expand on that thought
Second, it seems like you are sayin that an underpowered car is easier to drive and a powerful car is harder to drive...what I take from that is - it takes more skill to drive a more powerful car, less skill to drive an underpowered car
If a driver is that good where he can drive a miata as fast as a corvette, then he should have no problems driving the corvette even faster?
Something seems off...
(This was typed at a few stoplights if it seems weird haha)
12-13-2012, 10:18 AM
#51
Jacob, I'm talking purely about having fun not who's faster or what car is slower. A fast car that is harder to drive at the limit is simply more exciting and more fun than a slower car that is easy to drive at the limit. Both are a lot of fun either way, but the more challenging car will get my heart beating and adrenaline pumping as I learn its limits and how to drive it properly. That's the only point I was trying to make.
You say yourself that the fun is in challenging and improving your driving abilities. Why doesn't it then make sense that a bigger challenge would be more fun?
-- Ed
You say yourself that the fun is in challenging and improving your driving abilities. Why doesn't it then make sense that a bigger challenge would be more fun?
-- Ed
12-13-2012, 10:36 AM
#55
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I think it was already said, and pretty well summed up here in the last few, but Heedz was more or less poking a stick at the other thread...but also saying that you CAN have fun in slower cars. That does not mean that cars with gobs of power aren't also fun. Ultimately cars = fun, and I believe that's why a good percentage of us are on this forum.
12-13-2012, 11:33 AM
#59
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Jacob, I'm talking purely about having fun not who's faster or what car is slower. A fast car that is harder to drive at the limit is simply more exciting and more fun than a slower car that is easy to drive at the limit. Both are a lot of fun either way, but the more challenging car will get my heart beating and adrenaline pumping as I learn its limits and how to drive it properly. That's the only point I was trying to make.
You say yourself that the fun is in challenging and improving your driving abilities. Why doesn't it then make sense that a bigger challenge would be more fun?
-- Ed
You say yourself that the fun is in challenging and improving your driving abilities. Why doesn't it then make sense that a bigger challenge would be more fun?
-- Ed
Maybe the simple fact of the matter is that I am not that skilled of a driver.
All that extra power that makes it so that the average driver can finally out-accelerate that jerk in the Camry is enough to make cars these days seriously dangerous in the wrong hands because of all the un-needed power. I am probably fairly alone in my thinking here, but I agree with me 100%.
Younger folks scoff and laugh at the power cars made 10-20 years ago. People point out that a Camry has more power than a SS Camaro did 15 years ago. The daily drivers of little old ladies have more power than racing cars of the past. Yes, it's true - and so so sad. It has created a whole new kind of terrible, and frightening driver that has the winning combination of not enough skill combined with too much confidence, and the idea that power alone will make them faster. The skill came from starting out in underpowered cars, as you have mentioned you did yourself.
I mean, the most confusing thing to me here is that I think we probably agree for the most part, and I see what you are saying - but I just can't get my point across. Plus, I am old. So that makes me sort of dumb across the board.
I think it was already said, and pretty well summed up here in the last few, but Heedz was more or less poking a stick at the other thread...but also saying that you CAN have fun in slower cars. That does not mean that cars with gobs of power aren't also fun. Ultimately cars = fun, and I believe that's why a good percentage of us are on this forum.
Anyway, I definitely have nothing personal against anyone, and enjoy discussion. My first post in here was because it was refreshing to see as opposed to all the (what I see as) crap about how the BRZ sucks because it's "slow." I don't want to share the roads with people that think that way, but that is just because I am PASSIONATE about driving, and I love every minute of it. Most people I talk to hate driving. Whatevs.
But, this has gotten way out of hand! I guess I don't have what it takes to explain myself. No worries, but I think I am going to stop trying. Everyone has my permission to think of me as "wrong."
Last edited by wombatsauce; 12-13-2012 at 11:36 AM. Reason: Edit: wordingtarded.
12-13-2012, 12:45 PM
#60
Come on now, I'm not that stupid, there are many factors that make one car faster than another, hp is just one of those
And you say that underpowered cars are funner, so I figured you would want the underpowered base impreza instead of a wrx because it would be funner than a wrx/sti (that's what I was getting from your previous statements - that underpowered cars are always more fun)
And you say that underpowered cars are funner, so I figured you would want the underpowered base impreza instead of a wrx because it would be funner than a wrx/sti (that's what I was getting from your previous statements - that underpowered cars are always more fun)