Hey Everyone,

I'm sorta of a lurker here, and don't post often.

However, I did have a question and was hoping people could provide some color.

I just signed up for the Primitive Rally School - Nor Cal, which is April 15-17. I'm excited to take car control to a whole new level.

Just curious, has anyone ever done one of these schools? How was it?

Thanks!

 

It's awesome and you will have a great time! Paul's a great teacher.

If you're interested in rally you should volunteer for the upcoming Mendocino Rally! I'll be posting a new thread in the next day or so so keep an eye out for it and save the date!

-Brian

 

I did this the first year Paul came down to do his school in the bay area. It was a lot of fun and a great experience; and I highly recommend it. I came a couple times after that just for the open-to-the-public sunday rallyx.

One thing I was a little surprised was how much time was devoted to TSD rally. This is not a bad thing, and I agree with Paul that if you ever eventually do real rally racing, you need TSD skills. In retrospect, I was glad we did it. The thing is, I think most people are signing into the school so they can drive like Sebastin Loeb.... or Ken Block.

So just realize that Friday night is spent talking a lot about TSD as well as car control. (Unless the curriculum changed since I went.)

On Saturday, it's morning and afternoon behind the wheel in the Sonoma dirt lot, with a break for TSD and lunch. Sunday it's a regular rallyx.

The biggest thing I think that would help is mental preparation. Use every single day you have until April 15-17 to make your brain sensitive to your own butt dyno. You need to be able to feel how your actions (gas/brake/turn/road-undulations) affect where you car is "leaning its weight" and you want to be sensitive how momentum controls that weight. They'll be talking about these concepts in the class, BUT you need to have your butt dyno sensitivity as developed as possible before you go in... because developing that sensitivity is a LONG PROCESS OF EXPERIENCE.

You can develop your sensitivity every day; even when driving normal legal speeds on the road. When you make turns, plan your route and where you are going to "put the weight of the car" in each step of the turn. Anticipate how the road will affect where your cars weight will be and learn how to "absorb" the road and "keep balance".

 

Speaking of which, there’s a TSD rally (mostly paved with some dirt) up in Ukiah on April 30:

Mendocino Gold (new info not yet up)

We did it and it’s a blast. Challenging, especially for the uninitiated.

Also, for those closer to Los Angeles, there’s a monthly TSD rally in the hills:
Welcome to ITN Rallye Club Home Page

One of them goes all night starting in LA, up and down California, ending in Las Vegas at dawn.

 

Great to here all the feedback, definitely makes me more excited.

I don't have a rallycross car, so I'll be renting one from the program.

To be honest, I see rally as a exercise in car control. I've been into high performance driving since I was a teenager. Only really learning to take lines, control weight, USE weight transfer, and more through my college years. I've done several season of autox, taking 3rd in my class. And more importantly, I've driven and learned across all platforms.

In fact, I've always been a strong believer that the FWD platform is the BEST learning platform. It is what I started driving on, and learned ALOT.

My problem as a driver, is that I feel like I've peaked. I'm pretty good at the limit, and know when to back off. But I know there is whole other side of driving...past the limit. I think rallycross seems to be the relatively easiest way to put myself in that situation. I'm hoping the class will open a door and push me past this plateau.

It is one thing to slide and toss a car past its limit in a video game, its another to do it in real life. I'm hoping rallycross helps bring some reality to what "think" I've been feeling in LFS n Dirt Rally.

And well if it is as fun as I think it will be, I'll just have to find a junker to turn into a rally machine! ^_^

 

Sounds like you have the right background then. I think it's incorrect to call rally or low traction surface "over the limit". The fastest rally and rallyxers are driving at the limit of a low traction environment.

What messes people up from the Tarmac world (speaking from my own experience) is that in Tarmac it's a "sin to slide" because it's slow. This is actually still essentially true for low traction environments. You never drift just because.

As someone phrased it to me, you have to build up your "dirt IQ"; that is to get the feel for the way dirt works.

Being an engineer, I wanted to take this further and understand why the rules seem to be broken in dirt. And I've come to the conclusion that they are NOT broken. But the understanding that Tarmac people have (I was one of them) is actually an over simplification of what's really going on.

Here's my personal physics explanation. In Tarmac, the coefficient of static friction (gripping) "uSt" >>> (is much much higher) than the coefficient of kinetic friction (sliding) "uKi". That's why it's simplified to "don't slide" because that's over the STATIC traction limit.

In dirt (or other loose surfaces) the uSt is a lot lower, and often is close to uKe. When this happens, the penalty for sliding a wheel isn't nearly as bad. In fact sometimes you go back and forth between static and kinetic. Even so, you usually don't want big drifts.

From what I've observed and experienced, the time you want to slide is only when you're still trying to rotate the car. This is because the traction available (both uSt/uKe) are so low that the time to rotate the car exceed the time through the corner. When this happens you use some of the braking zone time to rotate the car. And that's where you need to slide. But the second you have enough rotation, you don't want to be sliding.

Drifting wide is never fast.

What I like about dirt is that one can't buy a fat wide tire, at 400hp, and use $$ to band aid ones way into being fast. This is almost like your FWD example. So it sounds like you're already on the right track.

Have fun

 

I'm glad you pointed out that in rally static is very close to slipping.

This should be an interesting experience!

 

Good info guys, just reading this makes me want to try the dirt.

 

There is a notable exeption. If you have rotated so early that you are done turning, then you may still be sliding sideways. This is ok because you are still in the braking zone and are using the slide to "brake".

So I think a good rule of thumb is that sliding = braking. So as long as you use it that way, then it's good. You should not be sliding anywhere else.

eg:

 

Oh and something I remember from developing my "dirt IQ".

I would under estimate just how much less traction there was compared to tarmac. In some cases easily 45mph corner with a 10 ft breaking zone on tarmac can be 3-5 times slower in rallyx with 3-5 times longer in braking zone. You'll find your self initiating rotation so early that if you did the same in tarmac you would early apex so badly you cut the corner, cross the track, and fly outside the exit. (Hence why it's so hard for a "tarmackee" to transition to being a "dirtee")

 

I have two factory lifted Subaru's (a crossover) yet I've never taken either of them to a rallycross session...

Maybe this year I can break that.