I need a local tuner
I <3 White Girls
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Posts: 26,491
From: Danville, CA
Car Info: E92 M3, E70, F32, E21
Originally Posted by dan avoN7
your just mad because you can't tune and think 15 degrees of timing is okay to be running at higher rpm.
you seem to know your stuff.
So when is DPT going to start tuning?
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 63
From: CP - Oceanside, CA
Car Info: X-Wing: ECU Tuner
In all due respect you choose your tuner for the reasons you want and you are satisfied with, each one has thier way of tuning that has gotten them to where they are today. The fact that we are both in business and very close to each other is amazing. Where else in the country can you find this, and where else if any does it still exist. Now we have another one coming into town, S-Squared in Sacremento, that will be three, it is madness I tell you. 
I little birdy told me there is even another one developing nearby, at that point I am not sure what will happen. Competition is good for business right? 
I little birdy told me there is even another one developing nearby, at that point I am not sure what will happen. Competition is good for business right?
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Originally Posted by I-Speed USA
Thanks for the insight Alex. If I may add a little of my own; I was going to bat for you and what possibilities may or may not exist. That is why I publicly addressed Bill. I could have just phoned him, but I felt my point would be taken more seriously if it was stated to Bill here. Obviously, you took it the wrong way.
Anyway, I am positive that i-clubers are always glad to hear of your successes and how much you go out of your way to help i-club grow. Keep up the good work and we all are waiting to hear more about your Project Cusco car.
On another note: I have told you in person, over the phone and now in front of everyone…Thank You for your contributions to I-Speed USA. We would not be where we are without BAIC and there would be no BAIC without i-club. Whether you like to believe it or not, people like yourself have helped us strive for bigger and better. Hopefully we can continue to grow and make BAIC proud.
Regards,
Chris
Anyway, I am positive that i-clubers are always glad to hear of your successes and how much you go out of your way to help i-club grow. Keep up the good work and we all are waiting to hear more about your Project Cusco car.
On another note: I have told you in person, over the phone and now in front of everyone…Thank You for your contributions to I-Speed USA. We would not be where we are without BAIC and there would be no BAIC without i-club. Whether you like to believe it or not, people like yourself have helped us strive for bigger and better. Hopefully we can continue to grow and make BAIC proud.
Regards,
Chris
Agreed! Chris is it you or Bill thats from my neck of the woods? SM TX? Anyway we have spoke a few times on the phone before I enlisted with Shiv. Just wanted to say Hi. And maybe you can field the question about why the Eckutek (or Xede if your feeling nice
) is a more consistant approach for this good fellow
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Whatup Dave? Yeah my family hails from the two largest places in TX, Smithville and Del Rio. You know that's where all the action is! Now most of the modern clan have migrated to Austin and some of us, like me, have opted for this wacky state 
Re: Xede or ECUtek
I will ask Bill to comment, since he has tinkered with both. Are you gonna take a shot at answering too
Chris
Re: Xede or ECUtek
I will ask Bill to comment, since he has tinkered with both. Are you gonna take a shot at answering too
Chris
Thread Starter
Registered User
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Posts: 248
From: SF Bay
Car Info: 02 WRX Wagon
Yes, I would like more details on why a reflash is recommended generally over the UTEC.
I've hear it's more reliable, easier to tune, and smoother.
I think some of us would like to know more details than these laymen terms would indicate. I don;t profess to be very knowledgeable, but I do like to learn.
thanks....
dan.
I've hear it's more reliable, easier to tune, and smoother.
I think some of us would like to know more details than these laymen terms would indicate. I don;t profess to be very knowledgeable, but I do like to learn.
thanks....
dan.
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Originally Posted by BOOOST4
Yes, I would like more details on why a reflash is recommended generally over the UTEC.
I've hear it's more reliable, easier to tune, and smoother.
I think some of us would like to know more details than these laymen terms would indicate. I don;t profess to be very knowledgeable, but I do like to learn.
thanks....
dan.
I've hear it's more reliable, easier to tune, and smoother.
I think some of us would like to know more details than these laymen terms would indicate. I don;t profess to be very knowledgeable, but I do like to learn.
thanks....
dan.
For a piggyback system the Xede has passthrough processing of the factory fuel and timing tables- So its a consistant offset of the actual computer this is helpful because it does not run an absolute timing which lays the responsibility of defining and properly implementing knock correction - Thats Pro tuner stuff there! Even if you are getting a professional to tune that its hours and hours on the dyno to do right and then you got seasonal, temperature, elevation ect to GUESS at! Subaru spends mega time and dollars programming the factory ECU to be dynamic in its ability to to sense and deal with knock properly. There are multiple ignition, and fuel maps as well as advance multipliers all calibrated wonderfully.
The Xede is also super consistant run to run and is transparent to the ECU in that its not firing the coils (trust me thats a good thing!) To do a test have one of your friends do 3 back to back dynoruns on the favorite piggyback and post the consistancy- tiny knock events add up people! Ringlands are a result
The Reflashes are great for custom tunes at a tuners facility or with strictly regulated "stages" that should and must be adheared to. There are only a number of combos (not talking about different 3" exhausts or the like) a tuner can feel comfortable supporting through the mail , due to the fact that a sufficient amount of cars must have the same mods with consistant results and reactions to the same map- Im sure you get that part
The Reflash also affords the tuner to keep all factory functions concerning knock, baro, temp ect correction functioning perfectly while rewriting the performance tables. Its turnkey works perfectly and has great results. I hope that helps without offending any TXS loyalists or the TXS- I think you will find I was factual and fair in answering this fellows question.
David
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From: 631 Railroad Ave. Fairfield, CA
Car Info: A Laptop
The UTEC is a good piggy back system, but it has several serious flaws. Before the recent software release, the fuel maps were offsets of the stock ECU's maps. This created a/f instability especially when dealing with larger injectors and the ECU's trims in closed loop. With the new software release, TXS has locked the open loop fuel map, but they still have issues with the OL/CL crossover resulting in rich and lean conditions at part throttle, not making it a very pleasant drive. Granted, it is possible to tune out most of this, but IMO that's not where a tuner should have to spend a lot of time on every car he tunes. The second major problem with the UTEC is the so called "closed loop boost control." I'm not quite sure why they call it closed loop, as it doesn't really behave like a propper closed loop system. I've read reports of boost fluctuating up to 2psi due to weather and altitude changes and the UTEC does nothing to bring the boost back to the propper level. That brings us to another major flaw... the UTEC doesn't adjust to changing conditions properly. People end up running winter and summer maps... and for some reason UTEC users are instructed to DECREASE boost as the weather gets COLDER to prevent knock. This simply doesn't make sense... with colder air, the turbo and intercooler are working at a more effecient level, and all else being equal, the chance of detonation is greatly reduced. The only explanation is that the UTEC doesn't adjust fuel propperly for the increased density of the colder air, resulting in a lean mixture and detonation. As far as the ignition control, I wouldn't say that the UTEC's static map is necessarily a bad thing, but I can say again, that it lacks adjustability for varying conditions.
Having said all that, the UTEC isn't a bad system... but it has a lot of funny quirks that shouldn't exist in an expensive, modern engine control unit. Its deffinately possible to work around a lot of these quirks, but it takes a lot of time and effort and creates techniques that don't apply to tuning with a propper system. And in the end, the user still ends up with several maps to switch from for varying conditions.
Working with the stock ECU code, on the other hand, gives a tuner control over all of the features engineered by Subaru to get around exactly those quirks present in the UTEC. Its simply a more suphisticated system that can do more and is much more adaptable to varying every day conditions.
I can't personally speak for the Xede as I have not really played with one, but I doubt that its free of all quirks and issues that are present in all other piggy back systems.
-- Ed
Having said all that, the UTEC isn't a bad system... but it has a lot of funny quirks that shouldn't exist in an expensive, modern engine control unit. Its deffinately possible to work around a lot of these quirks, but it takes a lot of time and effort and creates techniques that don't apply to tuning with a propper system. And in the end, the user still ends up with several maps to switch from for varying conditions.
Working with the stock ECU code, on the other hand, gives a tuner control over all of the features engineered by Subaru to get around exactly those quirks present in the UTEC. Its simply a more suphisticated system that can do more and is much more adaptable to varying every day conditions.
I can't personally speak for the Xede as I have not really played with one, but I doubt that its free of all quirks and issues that are present in all other piggy back systems.
-- Ed
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From: 631 Railroad Ave. Fairfield, CA
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Getting back to the original question... I've dealt with both Shiv and Bill. Both are good tuners and good guys, but of course each has his own approach to tuning. I won't go into the details of their tuning strategies, as its not place to disclose such info. But I will say that after dealing with both tuners, its my opinion that Bill's understanding of the inner workings of the ECU is more comprehensive than Shiv's. Bill comes from a software background and therefore has an advantage in understanding how programs are designed, written, and operate, and IMO that gives him a significant edge as a tuner, especially when dealing with complex systems like the Subaru ECU.
-- Ed
-- Ed
Thread Starter
Registered User
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Posts: 248
From: SF Bay
Car Info: 02 WRX Wagon
this is good stuff. I appreciate peoples thoughts and opinion.
SO far, I'm getting that the ecutek/zede allows teh ecu to do what it does best, adapt while still enhancing performance.
The UTEC is more fixed, but since it has map changing funtctionality, the driver can switch to the map that's more appropriate.
So it seems to come down to who should do the adapting; the ecu or the driver.
well, if the driver is oblivious to his surroundings, then that type of driver should really opt for the reflash.
For drivers who are more aware and like more control, then the UTEC would be a good choice since he or she can change the maps themselve to adjust for the changes in driving conditions.
The question is, what type of driver are you?
I do realize I am over simplyfying the differences (which contradicts my earlier post on wanting more technical details)...what can Isay, I'm fickle, please let me know if I'm still missing something obvious.
for me personally, I'm leaning towards UTEC with: cold weather map, hot weather map, average temp map, high elevation map, stock map. I believe that should cover all the driving conditions which causes "quirks" in the UTEC.
dan <--- still learning =)
SO far, I'm getting that the ecutek/zede allows teh ecu to do what it does best, adapt while still enhancing performance.
The UTEC is more fixed, but since it has map changing funtctionality, the driver can switch to the map that's more appropriate.
So it seems to come down to who should do the adapting; the ecu or the driver.
well, if the driver is oblivious to his surroundings, then that type of driver should really opt for the reflash.
For drivers who are more aware and like more control, then the UTEC would be a good choice since he or she can change the maps themselve to adjust for the changes in driving conditions.
The question is, what type of driver are you?
I do realize I am over simplyfying the differences (which contradicts my earlier post on wanting more technical details)...what can Isay, I'm fickle, please let me know if I'm still missing something obvious.
for me personally, I'm leaning towards UTEC with: cold weather map, hot weather map, average temp map, high elevation map, stock map. I believe that should cover all the driving conditions which causes "quirks" in the UTEC.
dan <--- still learning =)
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From: 631 Railroad Ave. Fairfield, CA
Car Info: A Laptop
Dan,
Its not only a matter of having to switch maps with varying conditions. First of all, it will take much more tuning, under the propper conditions to make the necessary maps for the UTEC. Secondly, if gas quality varies enough, any of the UTEC maps could still start knocking. If this happens, its up to the user to go in and tweak the map. Whereas with ecutek, the ECU hears the knock and adjusts on its own. So its not really just a question of control, but also a matter of weather you are willing to mess around with the UTEC maps occasionally.
IMO the UTEC is only good for those who need to be able to tune and re-tune their own cars for ever varying mods. If that's not you, then a reflash would deffinately suit you much better and make you much happier.
-- Ed
Its not only a matter of having to switch maps with varying conditions. First of all, it will take much more tuning, under the propper conditions to make the necessary maps for the UTEC. Secondly, if gas quality varies enough, any of the UTEC maps could still start knocking. If this happens, its up to the user to go in and tweak the map. Whereas with ecutek, the ECU hears the knock and adjusts on its own. So its not really just a question of control, but also a matter of weather you are willing to mess around with the UTEC maps occasionally.
IMO the UTEC is only good for those who need to be able to tune and re-tune their own cars for ever varying mods. If that's not you, then a reflash would deffinately suit you much better and make you much happier.
-- Ed
