View Poll Results: Do you believe in a god?
Yes
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Do you believe in God?
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Originally posted by mmboost
And you go back to my first comments. Knowledge and Understanding are equally as subject as belief to being pointless, going by your reasonsing. This is because our understanding is always changing, meaning its always wrong because we are always correcting it. You can't throw out faith and belief and keep what you call "knowledge and understanding", esp. when you make both decisions on different criteria while discussing it as though you are using the same criteria.
Science (meaning "knowledge" in Latin) is as continually in flux to the same degree that faith is a subjective matter... therefore, knowledge is as subjective as faith (its subjective your current knowledge limitations) Because "proof" is only as good as the given and the logic applied. Assume all logic is correct. How many times has our givens been proven wrong
So, how is knowledge superior over faith?
Please do not think I am under the opinion that knowledge is bad. I like knowing stuff. Its fun to learn things all the time. But I think we need to get some perspective on 1) just how much we Truly know about our Universe compared to what we think we know and 2) that Truth in Science is as intangible to use as proving one's faith. The journey for Science will never end... that is what make it unreliable. Make sense?
jason
And you go back to my first comments. Knowledge and Understanding are equally as subject as belief to being pointless, going by your reasonsing. This is because our understanding is always changing, meaning its always wrong because we are always correcting it. You can't throw out faith and belief and keep what you call "knowledge and understanding", esp. when you make both decisions on different criteria while discussing it as though you are using the same criteria.
Science (meaning "knowledge" in Latin) is as continually in flux to the same degree that faith is a subjective matter... therefore, knowledge is as subjective as faith (its subjective your current knowledge limitations) Because "proof" is only as good as the given and the logic applied. Assume all logic is correct. How many times has our givens been proven wrong
So, how is knowledge superior over faith?
Please do not think I am under the opinion that knowledge is bad. I like knowing stuff. Its fun to learn things all the time. But I think we need to get some perspective on 1) just how much we Truly know about our Universe compared to what we think we know and 2) that Truth in Science is as intangible to use as proving one's faith. The journey for Science will never end... that is what make it unreliable. Make sense?
jason
There are 4 thought processes that an intellegent being goes through:
1. Instinct/Impulse- The reaction to a stimulus without thought. I.E. Reaction to hot, cold, natural self defence mechanisms.
2. Belief- A non-objective level of thought. Like an idea whose answer/truth/validity/etc. is not known, only assumed. I.E. Once upon a time, the earth was believed to be flat. There was no way to know for sure at that time (due to lack of facilities) but it was believed to be true.
3. Knowledge- Knowing Solid, true, facts, exists, etc. Things that actually exist WITHOUT the requirement of perception. A belief changes into knowledge as soon as it is verified. I.E. We know that earth is round because we can travel in any straight line and reach back where we started.
4. Understanding- Application thought using knowledge combined with experience. This is what allows for "creativity" and discovery. I.E. It is the difference say between one who can drive a car and one who understands how a car operates while driving it. It requires alot of knowledge to accomplish only a little understanding.
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Originally posted by mmboost
Being wronged, robbed, bereft of my rights, slandered, etc is not my worst fear. WHAT IS YOUR WORST FEAR?
I'm programmed by the world I live in, for sure, to have certain responses when someone tries to do those things to me. SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU SHOULDN'T BE AFRAID OF THOSE THINGS? SHOULD GOD TAKE CARE OF THEM FOR YOU? WHAT IF HE DOESN'T?
But slowly I'm working out of that and trying to be far more concerned with things like: When I spend my money, do I portray God's self-proclaimed heart? Like, caring for the poor and protecting the weak? When I choose my job am I clamouring for my life and practicing a self-sufficiency that replaces God's care? I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS. IF YOU ARE SELF SUFFICIENT, YOU ARE VIOLATING SOME PRINCIPLE OF CHRISTIANITY? MUST YOU ONLY WORK TO PROVIDE FOR THOSE LESS FORTUNATE THAN YOU AND ONLY TAKE FOR YOURSELF WHAT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY?
Or am I seeing this as a gift from God and using my work as a place to be an example of what God asks of those who love him?
SEEING WHAT AS A GIFT FROM GOD? WEREN'T WE JUST TALKING ABOUT NOT GIVING GOD THE CREDIT OF THE THINGS WE DO FOR OURSELVES?
Do I feel the need to brow-beat people with religiosity, or can I trust God and take his word that if I just live out my daily life as an example he'll take care of the rest... he doesnt actually need my skills or my money anyhow.
YOU'RE NOT BROW BEATING ANY ONE. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'RE LIVING YOUR LIFE AS AN EXAMPLE AND I DON'T KNOW IF HE WILL TAKE CARE OF ANYTHING. IF THERE IS A GOD, YOU'RE RIGHT, HE DOESN'T NEED ANYTHING FROM YOU (IMO). OR DOES HE, YOU TELL ME.
Do I feel the need to make everyone fit my moral code or do I realize that God actually asks us to care about the things he cares about as opposed to getting it all just right. Etc... etc...
YOU'RE LOSING ME HERE AGAIN. WHAT EXACTLY IS IT THAT GOD CARES AND DOESN'T CARE ABOUT?
This sort of Christianity, where God is actually the actor and I can be fully aware of my incapability, brokenness and God's lack of a demand for me to "get it right", doesn't just drive non-Christians crazy, but most Christians too.
CAN YOU REWORD THAT TO MAKE IT A LITTLE MORE CLEAR? I'M NOT QUITE GETTING IT.
Were I to "get it right", I would no longer need God, now would I?
DEPENDS ON HOW YOU DESCRIBE GETTING IT RIGHT.
(Which, incidentally, is why the scientific unattainable need to get it right clashes with faith.)
I THINK I GET WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.
What I find, however, is when we stop rationalizing and forcing God to fit what makes sense to us, whether you believe its God's word or not, this is what the Bible asks of us.
LOST AGAIN. OKAY I SEE "WHEN WE STOP RALTIONALIZING AND FORCING GOD TO FIT WHAT MAKES SENSE TO US, THIS IS WHAT THE BIBLE ASKS OF US." THAT IS JUST THE "WHEN THIS, THEN THIS" PART OF THE SENTENCE, BUT IT JUST DOESN'T SEEM TO JIVE.
jason
Being wronged, robbed, bereft of my rights, slandered, etc is not my worst fear. WHAT IS YOUR WORST FEAR?
I'm programmed by the world I live in, for sure, to have certain responses when someone tries to do those things to me. SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU SHOULDN'T BE AFRAID OF THOSE THINGS? SHOULD GOD TAKE CARE OF THEM FOR YOU? WHAT IF HE DOESN'T?
But slowly I'm working out of that and trying to be far more concerned with things like: When I spend my money, do I portray God's self-proclaimed heart? Like, caring for the poor and protecting the weak? When I choose my job am I clamouring for my life and practicing a self-sufficiency that replaces God's care? I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS. IF YOU ARE SELF SUFFICIENT, YOU ARE VIOLATING SOME PRINCIPLE OF CHRISTIANITY? MUST YOU ONLY WORK TO PROVIDE FOR THOSE LESS FORTUNATE THAN YOU AND ONLY TAKE FOR YOURSELF WHAT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY?
Or am I seeing this as a gift from God and using my work as a place to be an example of what God asks of those who love him?
SEEING WHAT AS A GIFT FROM GOD? WEREN'T WE JUST TALKING ABOUT NOT GIVING GOD THE CREDIT OF THE THINGS WE DO FOR OURSELVES?
Do I feel the need to brow-beat people with religiosity, or can I trust God and take his word that if I just live out my daily life as an example he'll take care of the rest... he doesnt actually need my skills or my money anyhow.
YOU'RE NOT BROW BEATING ANY ONE. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'RE LIVING YOUR LIFE AS AN EXAMPLE AND I DON'T KNOW IF HE WILL TAKE CARE OF ANYTHING. IF THERE IS A GOD, YOU'RE RIGHT, HE DOESN'T NEED ANYTHING FROM YOU (IMO). OR DOES HE, YOU TELL ME.
Do I feel the need to make everyone fit my moral code or do I realize that God actually asks us to care about the things he cares about as opposed to getting it all just right. Etc... etc...
YOU'RE LOSING ME HERE AGAIN. WHAT EXACTLY IS IT THAT GOD CARES AND DOESN'T CARE ABOUT?
This sort of Christianity, where God is actually the actor and I can be fully aware of my incapability, brokenness and God's lack of a demand for me to "get it right", doesn't just drive non-Christians crazy, but most Christians too.
CAN YOU REWORD THAT TO MAKE IT A LITTLE MORE CLEAR? I'M NOT QUITE GETTING IT.
Were I to "get it right", I would no longer need God, now would I?
DEPENDS ON HOW YOU DESCRIBE GETTING IT RIGHT.
(Which, incidentally, is why the scientific unattainable need to get it right clashes with faith.)
I THINK I GET WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.
What I find, however, is when we stop rationalizing and forcing God to fit what makes sense to us, whether you believe its God's word or not, this is what the Bible asks of us.
LOST AGAIN. OKAY I SEE "WHEN WE STOP RALTIONALIZING AND FORCING GOD TO FIT WHAT MAKES SENSE TO US, THIS IS WHAT THE BIBLE ASKS OF US." THAT IS JUST THE "WHEN THIS, THEN THIS" PART OF THE SENTENCE, BUT IT JUST DOESN'T SEEM TO JIVE.
jason
) bad grammar and my (always) bad reading comprehension are combining to make this harder than it has to be. First off, I would like to make a couple things very clear. I PROMISE that I'm not trying to attack your point of view here. I am merely trying to understand it. The ONLY reason I used caps was to make it easier for you to differentiate between what I wrote and what you wrote. I am not trying to yell!!! I swear to God!! wait, ooops... hehe
Okay, yes I did ask some questions, and while they may seem sarcastic and bad-intentioned, I honestly do not know the answers to them and I just want to know the answers. This is turning out to be very interesting.
EDIT:
There are 4 thought processes that an intellegent being goes through:
1. Instinct/Impulse
2. Belief
3. Knowledge
4. Understanding
1. Instinct/Impulse
2. Belief
3. Knowledge
4. Understanding
Last edited by Steppin Razor; Feb 11, 2003 at 11:06 PM.
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Originally posted by Kostamojen
Your defintions are highly flawed.
Your defintions are highly flawed.
Yeah but you still haven't gotten around that all this stuff you know, understand, whatever is still always changing. If your FACTS change... then they aren't really FACTS. They were then completely subjective to your perception of Truth.
And that's what you base your worldview on?
jason
p.s. the funny thing? I suddenly sound like I'm quoting Pontius Pilate, hahahaha "What is Truth? Is mine the same as yours?"
Last edited by mmboost; Feb 11, 2003 at 11:13 PM.
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Steppin,
er wow, that's a lot to respond to. I dunno if I can/wanna do it with BBS messaging capabilities... major pain in the butt... e-mail?
btw - you ask a lot of good questions.
jason
er wow, that's a lot to respond to. I dunno if I can/wanna
do it with BBS messaging capabilities... major pain in the butt... e-mail?btw - you ask a lot of good questions.
jason
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Intriguing yes?
Notice how this conversation changes from “question and possibility” to “must be fact/burden of proof”.
Has it not yet occurred to some of you that the future holds limitless possibilities? While, I feel, that we may view the past to acknowledge and gauge our present status, it is a great concern of mine that we, as a society, let go of the past. We call it the “past”, but yet, too many of us bring that past with us everyday. So, is it really the present we live in or the past?
People may quote or claim to provide evidence for or against a God…but what is the true purpose of such a question? It has been said, in some circles, that if God showed itself to us that it would no take but more than a second for people to either disbelieve or question where IT came from.
You see, it is not a question, if God exists…it’s a riddle…a game with no ending.
Many of us have been caught up in it, proving or disproving the riddle. We have spent so much time and effort that to stop would seem that our efforts were all in vein.
What has truly eluded some is that the time spent on solving the riddle is moot. It’s a story wrapped up in itself. It’s the lie told so many times that it has become reality.
Ever seen “war games” with Matthew Broderick? The oh so smart humans have the brilliant computer play tic-tac-toe with itself. WHY? So, the computer learns that it cannot win in a game against itself. Thus, proving to itself that games are pointless.
It’s such a simple concept. It really is so easy. Unfortunately, it so easy that we question the validity of anything THAT simple.
We have been trained to believe that there is an answer to everything. And guess what…if there isn’t…we make one up to make ourselves feel all better.
The true challenge is leaving the past where it belongs and creating a future everyday.
Notice how this conversation changes from “question and possibility” to “must be fact/burden of proof”.
Has it not yet occurred to some of you that the future holds limitless possibilities? While, I feel, that we may view the past to acknowledge and gauge our present status, it is a great concern of mine that we, as a society, let go of the past. We call it the “past”, but yet, too many of us bring that past with us everyday. So, is it really the present we live in or the past?
People may quote or claim to provide evidence for or against a God…but what is the true purpose of such a question? It has been said, in some circles, that if God showed itself to us that it would no take but more than a second for people to either disbelieve or question where IT came from.
You see, it is not a question, if God exists…it’s a riddle…a game with no ending.
Many of us have been caught up in it, proving or disproving the riddle. We have spent so much time and effort that to stop would seem that our efforts were all in vein.
What has truly eluded some is that the time spent on solving the riddle is moot. It’s a story wrapped up in itself. It’s the lie told so many times that it has become reality.
Ever seen “war games” with Matthew Broderick? The oh so smart humans have the brilliant computer play tic-tac-toe with itself. WHY? So, the computer learns that it cannot win in a game against itself. Thus, proving to itself that games are pointless.
It’s such a simple concept. It really is so easy. Unfortunately, it so easy that we question the validity of anything THAT simple.
We have been trained to believe that there is an answer to everything. And guess what…if there isn’t…we make one up to make ourselves feel all better.
The true challenge is leaving the past where it belongs and creating a future everyday.
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Originally posted by mmboost
Yeah but you still haven't gotten around that all this stuff you know, understand, whatever is still always changing. If your FACTS change... then they aren't really FACTS. They were then completely subjective to your perception of Truth.
And that's what you base your worldview on?
jason
p.s. the funny thing? I suddenly sound like I'm quoting Pontius Pilate, hahahaha "What is Truth? Is mine the same as yours?"
Yeah but you still haven't gotten around that all this stuff you know, understand, whatever is still always changing. If your FACTS change... then they aren't really FACTS. They were then completely subjective to your perception of Truth.
And that's what you base your worldview on?
jason
p.s. the funny thing? I suddenly sound like I'm quoting Pontius Pilate, hahahaha "What is Truth? Is mine the same as yours?"
This also goes to show you how little we truely know and understand as a people. After all, we havent been in existance for long enough to accompish much
Last edited by Kostamojen; Feb 12, 2003 at 12:35 AM.
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Originally posted by Steppin Razor
Very very interesting. In my 16 years of education, I was never taught this.
Very very interesting. In my 16 years of education, I was never taught this.
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Chris: I must have missed the part where the discussion changed from “question and possibility” to “must be fact/burden of proof”.
I agree with every statement you made in your last post except that we must "leav[e] the past where it belongs and creat[e] a future everyday."
While it is good to concentrate on the future and what it has in store for us, we must never ignore history because it provides countless lessons on mistakes that should not be made twice. So maybe we should leave the past behind, but we must never ignore the lesson we have learned. We must apply them to be more successful in the future.
I agree wholeheartedly that one must not get caught up in proving whether or not there is a god because it is impossible to prove either way. I'll leave that riddle up to my theology and religious study professors.
All I am trying to do is to understand WHY people believe in god so that I can understand the topic, as a whole, on a higher level and from more different perspectives.
Jason: Please email me at trkelsch@yahoo.com as I would very much like to hear the answers to the questions I asked. It seemed to me as though there may be some discrepancies in your argument, but they may actually be valid points. Again, please take the time to reply, and don't get me wrong, it doesn't have to be NOW (I understand you have other things to do than educate the ignorant). But at some point in the next week or so I would very much appreciate some answers as this thread has finally arrived where I hoped it would.
EDIT: And the numbers finally start shaping up how I thought they would. Atheists are the minority!!! Man that's a scary thought for me.
I agree with every statement you made in your last post except that we must "leav[e] the past where it belongs and creat[e] a future everyday."
While it is good to concentrate on the future and what it has in store for us, we must never ignore history because it provides countless lessons on mistakes that should not be made twice. So maybe we should leave the past behind, but we must never ignore the lesson we have learned. We must apply them to be more successful in the future.
I agree wholeheartedly that one must not get caught up in proving whether or not there is a god because it is impossible to prove either way. I'll leave that riddle up to my theology and religious study professors.
All I am trying to do is to understand WHY people believe in god so that I can understand the topic, as a whole, on a higher level and from more different perspectives.
Jason: Please email me at trkelsch@yahoo.com as I would very much like to hear the answers to the questions I asked. It seemed to me as though there may be some discrepancies in your argument, but they may actually be valid points. Again, please take the time to reply, and don't get me wrong, it doesn't have to be NOW (I understand you have other things to do than educate the ignorant
). But at some point in the next week or so I would very much appreciate some answers as this thread has finally arrived where I hoped it would.EDIT: And the numbers finally start shaping up how I thought they would. Atheists are the minority!!! Man that's a scary thought for me.
Last edited by Steppin Razor; Feb 12, 2003 at 12:35 AM.
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" All I am trying to do is to understand WHY people believe in god so that I can understand the topic, as a whole, on a higher level and from more different perspectives. "
Steppin, it is easier than you think. Acceptance is the key that unlocks the void in your mind.
I forget who said it but the quote was related to an author who was commenting on critics overanalyzing his work. The quote was, "sometimes a hammer really IS a hammer"
Steppin, it is easier than you think. Acceptance is the key that unlocks the void in your mind.
I forget who said it but the quote was related to an author who was commenting on critics overanalyzing his work. The quote was, "sometimes a hammer really IS a hammer"
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Originally posted by christoph1371
Steppin, it is easier than you think. Acceptance is the key that unlocks the void in your mind.
Steppin, it is easier than you think. Acceptance is the key that unlocks the void in your mind.
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I hope you mean accepting other people ideas. And even then, I don't think it's wise for one to accept ideas without understanding them. Otherwise it's a leap of faith, and why would you put your faith in something you know nothing about? That is a recipe for disaster in my book. I've tried it.
Then again, you're probably on a totally different level. I'll keep thinking about it I guess. And BTW you're making it out to seem like I will be so much better off when I have this epiphany. And I can't help but think that means discovering God. Oh well.
Then again, you're probably on a totally different level. I'll keep thinking about it I guess. And BTW you're making it out to seem like I will be so much better off when I have this epiphany. And I can't help but think that means discovering God. Oh well.
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You almost got it.
remember that accepting anothers ideas does not mean you have to like them. Hmmmm? interesting eh?
example: Adolf Hitler. I guess we can use him as an example.
I accept him. In fact I actually admire him. I am sure it was no easy feat for that little guy to get all those people to believe in him. He had a goal and he darn near completed it. pretty amazing if you ask me.
Now the kicker...just because I accept him does NOT in anyway mean that I like what he did. I think the acts that were conducted were pretty much ...disgusting.
I accept his choices but do not like them.
There IS a difference
remember that accepting anothers ideas does not mean you have to like them. Hmmmm? interesting eh?
example: Adolf Hitler. I guess we can use him as an example.
I accept him. In fact I actually admire him. I am sure it was no easy feat for that little guy to get all those people to believe in him. He had a goal and he darn near completed it. pretty amazing if you ask me.
Now the kicker...just because I accept him does NOT in anyway mean that I like what he did. I think the acts that were conducted were pretty much ...disgusting.
I accept his choices but do not like them.
There IS a difference
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As an astrophysics major, science has a great influence on my life. Though I know science can explain a lot of things, such as the laws of physics, etc. I do believe there is more to us than current science can explain.
I believe in a supreme being, though he may not have a beard, and there might have no been wise men, or an arc, I do believe that something created us. May it be something our puny minds can't comprehend, or maybe it be something we have never thought to have thought, whatever it is, something had to of created us.
Faith is like gasoline, and religion is like fire. When you mix them incorrectly, it has devestating repercusions.
More deaths have been caused by religion than anything else on this planet.
I believe in a supreme being, though he may not have a beard, and there might have no been wise men, or an arc, I do believe that something created us. May it be something our puny minds can't comprehend, or maybe it be something we have never thought to have thought, whatever it is, something had to of created us.
Faith is like gasoline, and religion is like fire. When you mix them incorrectly, it has devestating repercusions.
More deaths have been caused by religion than anything else on this planet.
Last edited by brucelee; Feb 12, 2003 at 01:46 AM.