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I think you're missing Chris's point jason. Lets use something less volatile.
I hate jelly belly jelly beans. they suck, and that company should go to hell. Now, if i believed that enough, so much that it was fundamental to my being, and i'd even die for it, it is then true. Jelly Belly jelly beans suck. But you see, only in the context of what i'm saying. If i was the ONLY person to be saying that, it'd hope that what i thought was still valid. I think, that you Jason. would say, nope. I think <and i'm going out on a limb here> that you'd say because i'm alone in that position, or that it's too few that follow, then i'm wrong, and the majority rules the other way... plain and simple.
am i right? or maybe i didn't get that right?
Hitler, was right, on his own beliefs. <personally, they should have killed him first... Austrian, short, black hair.. hmmmm> He was right, because he was someone who believed in whatever he believed it. that the Jews were the root of all the germans problems, etc. WHAT HE DID, was not right. WHAT HE THOUGHT, was perfectly acceptable. there is the difference.
No society should have control over how someone thinks. What some persons views are shouldn't be put down out right because it doens't jive with that others say. I think i'm explaining this one correctly.
-Gagan
I hate jelly belly jelly beans. they suck, and that company should go to hell. Now, if i believed that enough, so much that it was fundamental to my being, and i'd even die for it, it is then true. Jelly Belly jelly beans suck. But you see, only in the context of what i'm saying. If i was the ONLY person to be saying that, it'd hope that what i thought was still valid. I think, that you Jason. would say, nope. I think <and i'm going out on a limb here> that you'd say because i'm alone in that position, or that it's too few that follow, then i'm wrong, and the majority rules the other way... plain and simple.
am i right? or maybe i didn't get that right?
Hitler, was right, on his own beliefs. <personally, they should have killed him first... Austrian, short, black hair.. hmmmm> He was right, because he was someone who believed in whatever he believed it. that the Jews were the root of all the germans problems, etc. WHAT HE DID, was not right. WHAT HE THOUGHT, was perfectly acceptable. there is the difference.
No society should have control over how someone thinks. What some persons views are shouldn't be put down out right because it doens't jive with that others say. I think i'm explaining this one correctly.
-Gagan
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"Hitler believed what he said, and so did millions of others. Was "he right about Jews and Gypsies and Christians and Homsexuals because he believed it? "
Now I am sorry, but that's just dumb. OF course he was right. Why else would he work so hard to get where he wanted to go...because he thought he was wrong!? I accept that he thought he was right. I don't have to agree with that...that too is just silly, well at least for me."
My point to your question of hitler being right, was that he thought himself to be right, why else would he go about his ways...because he thought what his ideas were wrong.
----------------------
The sad truth is he thought he was right because he thought that's what the lord wanted him do.
-------
Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf, "... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." Years later, when in power, he quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech in 1938.
from here:
http://www.secularhumanism.org/libra...rphy_19_2.html
Now I am sorry, but that's just dumb. OF course he was right. Why else would he work so hard to get where he wanted to go...because he thought he was wrong!? I accept that he thought he was right. I don't have to agree with that...that too is just silly, well at least for me."
My point to your question of hitler being right, was that he thought himself to be right, why else would he go about his ways...because he thought what his ideas were wrong.
----------------------
The sad truth is he thought he was right because he thought that's what the lord wanted him do.
-------
Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf, "... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." Years later, when in power, he quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech in 1938.
from here:
http://www.secularhumanism.org/libra...rphy_19_2.html
Last edited by Peaty; Feb 13, 2003 at 08:16 AM.
Again, i hate it when people do **** like kill people in the name of God, etc...
He's no different. I'm just saying what one thinks, or beliefs, is different from what one does... People can think all they want, believe all they want... but when they start to hurt others, it's time to shut them down.
-Gagan
He's no different. I'm just saying what one thinks, or beliefs, is different from what one does... People can think all they want, believe all they want... but when they start to hurt others, it's time to shut them down.
-Gagan
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Originally posted by joltdudeuc
I hate jelly belly jelly beans. they suck, and that company should go to hell. Now, if i believed that enough, so much that it was fundamental to my being, and i'd even die for it, it is then true. Jelly Belly jelly beans suck. But you see, only in the context of what i'm saying. If i was the ONLY person to be saying that, it'd hope that what i thought was still valid. I think, that you Jason. would say, nope. I think <and i'm going out on a limb here> that you'd say because i'm alone in that position, or that it's too few that follow, then i'm wrong, and the majority rules the other way... plain and simple.
am i right? or maybe i didn't get that right?
-Gagan
I hate jelly belly jelly beans. they suck, and that company should go to hell. Now, if i believed that enough, so much that it was fundamental to my being, and i'd even die for it, it is then true. Jelly Belly jelly beans suck. But you see, only in the context of what i'm saying. If i was the ONLY person to be saying that, it'd hope that what i thought was still valid. I think, that you Jason. would say, nope. I think <and i'm going out on a limb here> that you'd say because i'm alone in that position, or that it's too few that follow, then i'm wrong, and the majority rules the other way... plain and simple.
am i right? or maybe i didn't get that right?
-Gagan
Hitler was not right because he can be proven to be not right... not matter how much you "open your mind". The facts are, the reality is, the truth in provable history is that per capita there at least as many expert contributors to the advancement of the human race in all those populations as there are in Hitler's Aryan and other Neo-Aryan movements. In fact I would argue that there are more. Much of the money and technology and science that the Third Reich was based on came from the people he called inferior.
Hitler was wrong because his perception of reality was different from what it really is, not becuse he veered from the majority opinion. I'm sorry Chris, but whether humanity is aware of Truth or Reality or not, there is a final Reality... like I said, something is, or isn't or something in between we haven't though of... but something Is .. and it is irregardless of individual perception because you can run your perception against what Is.... and at that point you can live in a deluded world in your own mind, or you can live in Reality, the Land of what Is.
To put it in more simple terms... you cannot, by our language, apply the term "right" to a perception unless it complies with reality. You have to use the term "thought he was right" or the lattter term you used. But if you are going to say in any context "Of course [Hitler] was right", you will always get lambasted by anyone who did or still does love that psychotic, genocidal, megolomaniac of pig. (Btw, the "pig" part perhaps is emotional... the other adjectives Are True).
jason
Last edited by mmboost; Feb 13, 2003 at 09:37 AM.
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Originally posted by joltdudeuc
Again, i hate it when people do **** like kill people in the name of God, etc...
He's no different. I'm just saying what one thinks, or beliefs, is different from what one does... People can think all they want, believe all they want... but when they start to hurt others, it's time to shut them down.
-Gagan
Again, i hate it when people do **** like kill people in the name of God, etc...
He's no different. I'm just saying what one thinks, or beliefs, is different from what one does... People can think all they want, believe all they want... but when they start to hurt others, it's time to shut them down.
-Gagan
If I believe in Christ and go around killing people for any reason, I am not a follower Christ. I am then lying to myself
jason
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So what happened to the discussion of believing in God?
If we cannot be objective, we cannot have such a discussion.
jason
If we cannot be objective, we cannot have such a discussion.
jason
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Chris: I think we all understand what you meant by your Hitler comments now, but you have to be very careful when talking about such sensitive topics to differentiate between "he was right" and "he thought he was right". I don't think any one would argue that he thought he was right. The reason people got upset and confused was when you started saying, "Of course [Hitler] WAS right" Yes, it was taken out of context, but you have to admit, yes you did write that. You understand what I mean?
And please tell us about you migrant farm work.
And please tell us about you migrant farm work.
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Originally posted by mmboost
That's excellent Gagan. But let me differentiate something... no one really does what they do not believe. If we think we can believe, trust in, have faith in, live by, etc., etc. some ideology and yet not participate in its fundamentals we are kidding ourselves. We actually then believe in something different.
If I believe in Christ and go around killing people for any reason, I am not a follower Christ. I am then lying to myself
jason
That's excellent Gagan. But let me differentiate something... no one really does what they do not believe. If we think we can believe, trust in, have faith in, live by, etc., etc. some ideology and yet not participate in its fundamentals we are kidding ourselves. We actually then believe in something different.
If I believe in Christ and go around killing people for any reason, I am not a follower Christ. I am then lying to myself
jason
So what happened to the discussion of believing in God?
If we cannot be objective, we cannot have such a discussion.
jason
If we cannot be objective, we cannot have such a discussion.
jason
Last edited by Steppin Razor; Feb 13, 2003 at 09:50 AM.
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Thank you Gagan and everyone else for making the effort to understand someone elses view.
I Agreed. I could possible be more clear. But then again, we are typing not speaking. When we read, we interpret what the words mean. So if I am clearer (or at least I think I am)when I type, who reads and interprets my words?
I believe that we are still talking about God. We have just went anouther route... Perhaps this will become clearer in a moment.
jason summarizes a good point when he states:
" To put it in more simple terms... you cannot, by our language, apply the term "right" to a perception unless it complies with reality."
Reality?! Whose reality is real? Yours or mine?
Obviously everyone thinks differently. We can all agree on that one, I hope. When someone dares to be fully expressed in their own views, no matter how good it makes them feel, no matter how right it makes them feel…other people tend to see that person and make comments like, “what a nut”, “that guy is a loser”, “he’s stupid” etc. Why do we do this?
Why can’t it be, “well, I respect that you chose to think differently than I. However I chose my own beliefs?” Then the two people can have a mutual understanding and respect.
Take that and apply it to god. The question should not be is there a god. Perhaps it should be, “Does god exist for you?” We may or may not like the response. But, IT IS the other person’s choice to believe what they want to.
NOW just because we respect/accept someone for his or her right to think for themselves, doesn’t mean that we have to go along/like what they have to say.
Farm work: My parents thought, when I was 8-12 that it would be a good idea for me to travel and work as they did. At first I hated it. I didn't understand until late 20's that it was done for love, for the hopes that I would understand and appreciate my roots, and to remind me that people are people no matter how rich or poor we are.
I Agreed. I could possible be more clear. But then again, we are typing not speaking. When we read, we interpret what the words mean. So if I am clearer (or at least I think I am)when I type, who reads and interprets my words?
I believe that we are still talking about God. We have just went anouther route... Perhaps this will become clearer in a moment.
jason summarizes a good point when he states:
" To put it in more simple terms... you cannot, by our language, apply the term "right" to a perception unless it complies with reality."
Reality?! Whose reality is real? Yours or mine?
Obviously everyone thinks differently. We can all agree on that one, I hope. When someone dares to be fully expressed in their own views, no matter how good it makes them feel, no matter how right it makes them feel…other people tend to see that person and make comments like, “what a nut”, “that guy is a loser”, “he’s stupid” etc. Why do we do this?
Why can’t it be, “well, I respect that you chose to think differently than I. However I chose my own beliefs?” Then the two people can have a mutual understanding and respect.
Take that and apply it to god. The question should not be is there a god. Perhaps it should be, “Does god exist for you?” We may or may not like the response. But, IT IS the other person’s choice to believe what they want to.
NOW just because we respect/accept someone for his or her right to think for themselves, doesn’t mean that we have to go along/like what they have to say.
Farm work: My parents thought, when I was 8-12 that it would be a good idea for me to travel and work as they did. At first I hated it. I didn't understand until late 20's that it was done for love, for the hopes that I would understand and appreciate my roots, and to remind me that people are people no matter how rich or poor we are.
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Reality?! Whose reality is real? Yours or mine?
Obviously everyone thinks differently. We can all agree on that one, I hope.
We can't because you still keep ignoring one thing that I keep asking you to address.
You refuse to differentiate between what Is and what You Think Is. You refuse to address that things can be unequivically proven and that your perception cannot change them. I am sitting at this keyboard typing... it doesn't matter my perception. Its actually happening... no matter how it appears or does not appear real to me. And Hitler was wrong about his assessment under his own classifications of what makes a being superior regarding the people he oppressed and murdered. Why won't you address that? Its not opinion. Its not perception. He was wrong. His ideas did not fit what exists.
Why can’t it be, “well, I respect that you chose to think differently than I. However I chose my own beliefs?” Then the two people can have a mutual understanding and respect.
I do not disrespect you for thinking differently or for choosing your own beliefs. But if you think that because you think something it is true, you are very delusional. That is not a put down, its pretty much the definition of the word.
Take that and apply it to god. The question should not be is there a god. Perhaps it should be, “Does god exist for you?” We may or may not like the response. But, IT IS the other person’s choice to believe what they want to.
But that's not the question that has been asked, is it? You are re-asking along the lines of: "Does the planet Earth exist for you?" It doesn't matter what you think as for the True answer to that question because the Earth does exist. You are on it right now. The only thing such an answer shows is your level of delusion.
I am not at all questioning what you think about God, really. I am question this notion you appear to have that everyone creates their own reality and that all realities are just as real and can co-exist. This also is a delusion. Everyone can and is entitled to think what they want. But when ideas regarding facts differ, one or more of us is always wrong.
Either God exists or God does not exist. One or more of us are wrong.
Wrong is not a moral state, Chris. Its a state of being. If you are wrong, you are not bad... you are incorrect. There's no shame in that. Society tries to tell us othewise and it leads to this touchy-feely new age sensitive "everyone's right" garbage. Well, when someone comes up against the way you think about engine management on I-Club and you tell them they are wrong, I want you to think about this conversation.
jason
Obviously everyone thinks differently. We can all agree on that one, I hope.
We can't because you still keep ignoring one thing that I keep asking you to address.
You refuse to differentiate between what Is and what You Think Is. You refuse to address that things can be unequivically proven and that your perception cannot change them. I am sitting at this keyboard typing... it doesn't matter my perception. Its actually happening... no matter how it appears or does not appear real to me. And Hitler was wrong about his assessment under his own classifications of what makes a being superior regarding the people he oppressed and murdered. Why won't you address that? Its not opinion. Its not perception. He was wrong. His ideas did not fit what exists.
Why can’t it be, “well, I respect that you chose to think differently than I. However I chose my own beliefs?” Then the two people can have a mutual understanding and respect.
I do not disrespect you for thinking differently or for choosing your own beliefs. But if you think that because you think something it is true, you are very delusional. That is not a put down, its pretty much the definition of the word.
Take that and apply it to god. The question should not be is there a god. Perhaps it should be, “Does god exist for you?” We may or may not like the response. But, IT IS the other person’s choice to believe what they want to.
But that's not the question that has been asked, is it? You are re-asking along the lines of: "Does the planet Earth exist for you?" It doesn't matter what you think as for the True answer to that question because the Earth does exist. You are on it right now. The only thing such an answer shows is your level of delusion.
I am not at all questioning what you think about God, really. I am question this notion you appear to have that everyone creates their own reality and that all realities are just as real and can co-exist. This also is a delusion. Everyone can and is entitled to think what they want. But when ideas regarding facts differ, one or more of us is always wrong.
Either God exists or God does not exist. One or more of us are wrong.
Wrong is not a moral state, Chris. Its a state of being. If you are wrong, you are not bad... you are incorrect. There's no shame in that. Society tries to tell us othewise and it leads to this touchy-feely new age sensitive "everyone's right" garbage. Well, when someone comes up against the way you think about engine management on I-Club and you tell them they are wrong, I want you to think about this conversation.
jason
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Originally posted by Steppin Razor
So what sins do you have to commit before you are officially shunned by god, according to Christianity? I was under the impression that god was ALWAYS willing to forgive.
This is a common misconception about Christianity. There is a great book by a guy named C.S. Lewis. Unfortunately his most popular stuff is the more fluffy stuff. But he wrote a book called the Great Divorce. Its basically a book that gives a psychological theology of why people go to Hell.
Mind you, I am not giving a known analogy in Christian theology... its an allegory, like Plato's Cave simple explains, but does not exemplify.
In a nutshell, the time is somewhere after Christ's lifetime and before Judgement Day (like our present-day). Lewis has some characters in a sort of pre-Hell who get to take a busride up to the outskirts of Heaven. When they arrive a procession from Heaven comes out and tries to convince them to give up all those things they strive for and the claims and rights they think they have (which they brought to this pre-Hell from their earthly existance). Almost invariably the visitors from pre-Hell reject the invitation to come to Heaven because they would have to give up all these things. They are unwilling to live in submission to God because they cannot let go of their idea that submission always leads to oppression and that freedom is choice. The people in the procession from Heaven keep trying to explain that true freedom is found in being cared for by God and therefore submission to God is actually the door to freedom.
So, how does this answer your question?
Sin, in the way I think you are thinking of it, in terms of an act, is not the matter of forgiveness and damnnation. Its the rejection of what God offers humanity that determines our fate. From that choice comes how we behave and how we live. (Remeber what I said a few pages back? People act according to how they actually believe, not how they think they believe). Sin as a collection of actions is indicative of one's faith. This is why the Apostle James (1/2 brother of Jesus) says that one's faith and one's actions are inseprable. Dietrich Bonhoeffer (a Lutheran martyr unde the **** Regime) said that only the faithful can be obedient and only the obedient can be faithful.
Yes, God is always willing to forgive. But what is forgiveness when the offender does not want to be forgiven? If you hurt me, I can refrain from retribution, but I cannot make you love me. So it is with God. He won't force you into Heaven.
Make sense?
I have only one request, do not talk down to me as though I am lesser than you because I don't believe in a god.
Steppin, I actually find you to be one of the more perceptive folks on this thread who knows how to read and ask good questions despite an opposing point of view. That takes a strong mind and soft heart.
jason
So what sins do you have to commit before you are officially shunned by god, according to Christianity? I was under the impression that god was ALWAYS willing to forgive.
This is a common misconception about Christianity. There is a great book by a guy named C.S. Lewis. Unfortunately his most popular stuff is the more fluffy stuff. But he wrote a book called the Great Divorce. Its basically a book that gives a psychological theology of why people go to Hell.
Mind you, I am not giving a known analogy in Christian theology... its an allegory, like Plato's Cave simple explains, but does not exemplify.
In a nutshell, the time is somewhere after Christ's lifetime and before Judgement Day (like our present-day). Lewis has some characters in a sort of pre-Hell who get to take a busride up to the outskirts of Heaven. When they arrive a procession from Heaven comes out and tries to convince them to give up all those things they strive for and the claims and rights they think they have (which they brought to this pre-Hell from their earthly existance). Almost invariably the visitors from pre-Hell reject the invitation to come to Heaven because they would have to give up all these things. They are unwilling to live in submission to God because they cannot let go of their idea that submission always leads to oppression and that freedom is choice. The people in the procession from Heaven keep trying to explain that true freedom is found in being cared for by God and therefore submission to God is actually the door to freedom.
So, how does this answer your question?
Sin, in the way I think you are thinking of it, in terms of an act, is not the matter of forgiveness and damnnation. Its the rejection of what God offers humanity that determines our fate. From that choice comes how we behave and how we live. (Remeber what I said a few pages back? People act according to how they actually believe, not how they think they believe). Sin as a collection of actions is indicative of one's faith. This is why the Apostle James (1/2 brother of Jesus) says that one's faith and one's actions are inseprable. Dietrich Bonhoeffer (a Lutheran martyr unde the **** Regime) said that only the faithful can be obedient and only the obedient can be faithful. Yes, God is always willing to forgive. But what is forgiveness when the offender does not want to be forgiven? If you hurt me, I can refrain from retribution, but I cannot make you love me. So it is with God. He won't force you into Heaven.
Make sense?
I have only one request, do not talk down to me as though I am lesser than you because I don't believe in a god.
Steppin, I actually find you to be one of the more perceptive folks on this thread who knows how to read and ask good questions despite an opposing point of view. That takes a strong mind and soft heart.
jason
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too funny jason...
"Well, when someone comes up against the way you think about engine management on I-Club and you tell them they are wrong, I want you to think about this conversation."
I tell people the same thing I always say," I don't support (believe in) that piece of equipment." I am very stern about not making someone wrong for his or her choices. How do you think that's makes people feel when you make them wrong...you think it makes them feel good? Well, one thing is for sure when you make someone wrong you automatically make yourself ...right. Being right feels a whole lot better in the right vs. wrong dynamic.
You appear to be very stern about making me wrong. I don't think I have ever told you that you were incorrect/wrong for your views and if you got that...then I apologize.
I will repeat my invitation...if you are really willing/wanting to grasp/understand "why it is the way i think the way i do" then please call me, pm me, or email me.
"Well, when someone comes up against the way you think about engine management on I-Club and you tell them they are wrong, I want you to think about this conversation."
I tell people the same thing I always say," I don't support (believe in) that piece of equipment." I am very stern about not making someone wrong for his or her choices. How do you think that's makes people feel when you make them wrong...you think it makes them feel good? Well, one thing is for sure when you make someone wrong you automatically make yourself ...right. Being right feels a whole lot better in the right vs. wrong dynamic.
You appear to be very stern about making me wrong. I don't think I have ever told you that you were incorrect/wrong for your views and if you got that...then I apologize.
I will repeat my invitation...if you are really willing/wanting to grasp/understand "why it is the way i think the way i do" then please call me, pm me, or email me.
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Originally posted by mmboost
Therefore we cannot make a judgement on faith or science as superior explanation.
Would you go so far as to agree there, too?
My desire is to make people think... especially those who go the party line and say "I trust in science" because it is what our culture currently teaches. I want people to see that that "trust" is actually a belief. in other words, it is faith
jason
Therefore we cannot make a judgement on faith or science as superior explanation.
Would you go so far as to agree there, too?
My desire is to make people think... especially those who go the party line and say "I trust in science" because it is what our culture currently teaches. I want people to see that that "trust" is actually a belief. in other words, it is faith
jason
What I think we are agreeing on is that we can not make assumptions about the unknown, right?
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Originally posted by joltdudeuc
I hate jelly belly jelly beans. they suck, and that company should go to hell. Now, if i believed that enough, so much that it was fundamental to my being, and i'd even die for it, it is then true.
am i right? or maybe i didn't get that right?
-Gagan
I hate jelly belly jelly beans. they suck, and that company should go to hell. Now, if i believed that enough, so much that it was fundamental to my being, and i'd even die for it, it is then true.
am i right? or maybe i didn't get that right?
-Gagan
You can die for whatever you want to die for, that doesnt mean that it justifies how you lived
