wombatsauce

iTrader: (7)

But, it's not underpowered. Yes, people who do not understand the point of automobiles that get out of a more powerful vehicle into a less powerful vehicle will only notice the difference in power.

The only comparison between a 2.5RS/L and the BRZ is that you are talking about cars that require a driver to negotiate turns competently in order to keep pace, instead of today's methodology of looking like a frightened twitchy grandma in even the slightest bend, and then punching it in the straights.

Raw tools?

Hmm, is this something a baffled oil pan or even a dry-sump system would fix? Darn that low center of gravity... An STi going in a straight line would never have such silly problems!



Yes, someone who was used to an axe and was handed a katana would probably think the katana sucked for chopping wood. They could post on message boards about how stupid this little thin sword was and how much better their axe was, but really, all they would be saying is that they do not understand the point of the katana.



Indeed!

The power is exactly the same rating that my '85 300ZX turbo had, only it weighed more, had terrible suspension, and was basically a piece of crap - but it was still a lot of fun. I can't imagine that a much lighter, significantly more competent RWD car with 28 years of engineering on it's side would have any sort of a downside, but hey.

Probably thinks it's slow...

My personal opinion is that when someone says something like that a BRZ is slow, they are basically making it clear that they are not really into driving, but they like to talk about cars.

Yep. What I may like/want or what works for me has nothing to do with what you should drive.

Ha! I would probably rather have the Civic. But anyway, the funny thing about that is I remember reading somewhere that the Boxster or the Cayman was the target for the BRZ, and they succeeded in actually making the BRZ have a lower center of gravity than the Boxsterman.

Beyond that, comparing a Subaru to a Porsche is really not any more complicated than asking how much money you want to spend for the next couple years. Drive what you like, but the Porsche will be more expensive and is not guaranteed to offer any more fun.

S2000 is not a coupe. I would be on the same page if I did not care at all about storage space, were 5" shorter, or wanted another convertible, or felt like maintaining another used car. The BRZ is newer so it's hard to compare it to an S2000. Neither car is clearly "better" so really it's all about what you would prefer. I have driven a 2002 S2000 pretty extensively when I was considering replacing my WRX with it, and I will admit that it was pretty awesome. But - not even having driven the BRZ, I feel that I would probably prefer it "overall" over an S2000.

It also depends largely on the usage of the car. For strictly a track day toy, well, the S2000 looks a lot better there, because spending most of your time above 6krpm on a track is not a bad thing. I wonder which car has more power/tq at say 4krpm, or 3krpm... The thing is, I would also use it on the street - and I feel that the BRZ is one I could live with every day and still take on a track, where an S2000 is not (and I daily drove an MR2-Spyder for 4 years).

Hard to compare a teeny mid-engine pocket exotic to a 2+2 RWD sports car. Doesn't seem to make much sense to me really.

If you do not even have the car yet and the first thing you are thinking of is that you will need more power, it's time to consider a different car.



My MR2 Spyder was $10k w/ 40k miles in 2007, and SCC got theirs to exactly match an Elise on their track tests over and over and over. But, it doesn't say Lotus on it so that is definitely a downside... I called mine my Kirkland Signature Elise.

Swap in a 2ZZ and unless you are The Stig, there is really, seriously, actually, no point to the Lotus if you are also interested in car insurance and other real world things. Sorry.

If you just want the Lotus, then hey - cool. Nothing wrong with that. Hard to compare though since they are not at all comparable, and the used car is more expensive than the new one.

Falls very short of a sports car? That's pretty funny when a sports car was originally something that handled really well and had less than 100hp (MG, Triumph, cars that defined the term). Power, handling, brakes, steering, tires and suspension are not nearly as important as the driver, when talking about race tracks. Race tracks are strange and wonderful places where a Miatas and Civics humble "fast cars" on a pretty regular basis (because driver).

Also, a Camaro SS or Challenger SRT/8 or something would have no problem passing those mini-vans on Altamont! Probably a better option if that sort of thing is important..

Ha!!

Awesome!

MmmmMMMMMmmmmmmmmmMmmmmmm bacteria.

So, I have not driven a BRZ yet - mostly because I feel like if I do, I will want one really bad and I cannot get one right now. Thing is, I doubt I will want to talk about it much - because there are really only two trains of thought here, and that is not likely to change. There is the majority that says things like it's slow, and then a small faction that seems to understand and enjoy the car.

I still think Subaru should have come out with a BRZ "GT-Murica" edition with the old STi 2.5L turbo, to make people happy. I feel that this did not happen because it would be an insanely dangerous car, ironically/specifically, for the crowd that says the existing car is slow or under-powered. It's a sad conundrum that ends up killing things like the S2000 and MR2 Spyder - simply because people do not see the point.

The majority has forgotten (or never knew) what a Sports car is supposed to be, and has spent too much time playing video games.

perry753

iTrader: (2)

I test drove the car in the Livermore dealership. A supercharger is a pretty common upgrade for the BRZ.

edit: I just joined "Leave No Trace" to get the Subaru VIP discount in 6 months.

slow04wrx

iTrader: (3)

Little less horsepower than an old stock wrx and a lot less weight.



Why do people say it's underpowered when it's not?


Because it has 150 ft lbs of torque


Why do people compare it to the cayman? Because the electric assist steering is one of the best in the business and the consensus amongst journalist was it was far better than the first base 991 911 / new cayman. Clearly a comparison worth noting.

Overbear

I am going to go totally to the other side of what people seem to be hooked on. I test drove one, and:

1)I found it very very underpowered, poor acceleration, gearing was just way off from what little power curve it has.

2)I found even on a minor turn it wanted to lift the front some and take the weight off the inside front tire.

I would say in stock/oem trim its one of the worst RWD "performance" cars I have ever driven. Now I can see if you dump $4000 into it, it could be a great car, but in its off the lot trim...worthless.

wombatsauce

iTrader: (7)

Altezza tail-lights and fake fender vents seem pretty common on a lot of cars but.. Nevermind.

Plus lower center of gravity, etc. All of the great things about the BRZ would be completely invisible to someone who blindly went in expecting it to be a Corvette and hated it because it did not ZOOOOM when they stomped their foot.

There is a world of automotive journalists raving about the car and saying things like "The BRZ does NOT need more power" but of course a few people on a web forum feel it makes sense to come on here and say that it sucks based on a complete mis-understanding of the car.

If someone is going to go test-drive a BRZ and say that it's underpowered and expect that to mean something to automotive enthusiasts, they are only saying that they do not know what to do with a sports car.

Saying it doesn't handle well is really way out there. That's like someone who has never been off-road crashing an old FJ due to incompetence and saying that they suck off-road because of that.

2013 Subaru BRZ - Four Seasons Wrap-Up

To each his own. It's totally normal and okay to not understand this car. What I do not get is how people seem to go into it with misconceptions, and then get upset when the car does not meet their warped idea of what it is or should do, instead of trying to learn about it.

What would be great would be a track day where people could go and do ride-a-longs with some good drivers (say an instructor or someone with a competition license). Personally, I think SubaYota would have significantly benefited from holding some "demonstration track days" to show people what the car was all about. I think they really should have done that, or still should.

A powerful car is great for people who just want a "jolt" of acceleration and there is nothing wrong with that - this is where most people are at. Once they experience the crazy rush of a bobsled ride in a car that has an uncanny ability to hang onto turns and easily pass "faster" cars in the middle of bends, they learn. It's hard to get to this point - most people have never been there.

I believe that is why most people don't get this car.

Lowend

iTrader: (5)

I just got to watch one at an Auto-X
The handling was excellent, very little body roll. The car appeared to be pretty neutral on it's Kumho 710's

That said, it really didn't have the power to be competitive/get out of trouble.

Subaru is making the same mistake it made with the 2.5 RS; great looking car, great concept of a car, 100HP is missing.

If they come out with a factory "STI" version with the 2.5 Turbo... I'll probably buy it

Overbear

Then I would like to hear why you think I don't like the car. Do you think I lack experience? Perhaps I have never been behind the wheel of a true race car? Oh, perhaps its because I never attended race school?

The BRZ is a ok car, for people who don't have true driving skill, who want a "cool RWD" car, but for a sports car enthusiast, its not a great vehicle. It lacks the performance to make it a "great" car.

cheenew

iTrader: (2)

Had an 11 STi. Traded for the BRZ. Loved the STi for different reasons; love the BRZ for different reasons.

What I do hate about the BRZ is the chirping noise from what I've read to be the high pressure injectors. I also hate the fact that it grinds every time I down shift from 6th to 5th (even when rev matching); there's reports of others with this issue as well. I do notice at some point of down shifting enough from 6th to 5th, it goes away until the next start up again. Something I found interesting is that I can rev match and put it in to 1st gear (@ <20mph), something I've never been able to do in any other car I've owned; though, I don't think this has any real benefit.

All in all, good daily driver, fun *** hell car on back-roads, boring on stop 'n go situations, but good on gas so I can't complain. I'll likely turbo it at some point though, to fill the void.

Kaimino

Not that it matters much to some of you, but does the shifter use rod linkages or is it cable driven?

OneManArmy

iTrader: (7)

I just think you're expecting too much from a $25-28k car.

That's a BUDGET RWD sports car. S2000's were more when they came out.

Was your Forester a great car or just a cool suv with a nice start? Now... what is it now? Same thing with the BRZ. Is it a good platform to expand on? Is it great? Are there other choices?

Yeah there are other choices but if you want a brand new car to start with and your aren't looking for a 450hp super car then it's a really good start.

With some very minor tweaks it can be a great car. As it is, it's outperforming pretty much everything in it's class.

Underpowered is the main kick back on it. The S2k had a worse power to weight ratio and look what it's done over the years. It's still a new platform. There will be more upgrades. Getting even another 50hp out of it completely changes it. Putting something like a 350 hp built motor in it would take it to a completely different level... kind of like the motor in your car.

And sorry.... but if you think it's the worse RWD sports car you've ever driven then you gotta drive some more. Mazda and Nissan both have a couple out there that were GARBAGE in stock trim and cost more.


Bottom line. It's a budget 2 door car that gets decent gas mileage and is fun to drive. That's it's target. If someone wants a track car there are things they can do or other cars they can buy.



Just like I said before... it is what it is. After that it's what you make it.



Our cars are perfect examples of that and you of anyone should understand what it's like to take a car from one place to another.

subie OCD

iTrader: (11)

I would not buy this car. If I were in the market for a ~ $25k two door rwd sports car (which I'm not), I would pick up a used c5 vette. Obviously I'm not the target demographic. I appreciate what the car is and I'm sure it's a blast driving it at its limit but I'm not out driving hairpin turns every day. And I definitely agree with whoever said the lack of torque is disappointing going up hills/grades. It's always fun blasting UP a nice road.

Oh, nice troll topic btw

bkblitzed

iTrader: (5)

i like it more than my old 04 STi. It's good for autox, and track days. Best part is i can clutch kick for corners and drift when ever i want.

earlyapex

iTrader: (3)

I agree with most of your points in your post but this one is molded a bit to fit your point.

You forgot to mention that the SCC MR2 was modified and turbocharged with 100whp and 83wtq more than stock: Toyota MR-2 and Lotus Elise - Sport Compact Car

Lurk

iTrader: (10)

I test drove a Cayman back in the day.

Then I decided I wanted a real Porsche and bought a 996TT.

OneManArmy

iTrader: (7)

I envy you. That is one of the best cars on the road... period.