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Old Oct 28, 2004 | 04:00 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by syncopation
Geesh...

Death penalty for crimes (and I'm assuming you mean the US defenition of a crime that is punishable by death) is not the unlawful use or threat of violence against the state or the public as a politically motivated means of attack or coercion.

Thus it is not terrorism.

Of course the link in question post dates the 'Junta'. The CIA debrief files aren't good enough for you!!! These files must come from those propaganda leftists.

Here is another 'propaganda' link, as a summary to the actual CIA files I had just posted.

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/a....cia.chile.ap/
You apparently did not read your own source.

"The CIA admits prior knowledge of the plot that overthrew Allende three years later but denies any direct involvement. The agency says in the report that it had no way of knowing Allende would refuse safe passage with his palace under bombardment and kill himself."

Which is what the gwu official sources also say. You aren't reading them though, so you continue to assert that somehow Pinochet got "arms" from the CIA. Why he would need such arms or support when he was Chief of Staff of the Army is beyond me, unless you think the entire Chilean army was unarmed before 1970.

As for your definition, you responded by truism without explaining. You just took terms, and arbitrarily said "this is not that, therefore that doesn't apply." Let's make it a concrete example: In germany, there are criminal penalties for speaking out in favor of the *****. Does that make germany a terrorist state, because it threatens punishment to enforce a political aim?

Also, "unlawful" in your website means "unlawful" by international law, which is developing. There is certainly no international legal work that would make Pinochet's reign "terrorism." War Crimes, Crimes against humanity, maybe...but "terrorism", no. So go ahead further can clarify how we judge what is "unlawful".

Edited to add:

Just so there's no doubt, here's what the declassified sources say, which is also what's in the cnn article:

"Awareness of Coup Plotting in 1973.* Although CIA did not instigate the coup that ended Allende’s government on 11*September 1973, it was aware of coup-plotting by the military, had ongoing intelligence collection relationships with some plotters, and—because CIA did not discourage the takeover and had sought to instigate a coup in 1970—probably appeared to condone it.* There was no way that anyone, including CIA, could have known that Allende would refuse the putchists’ offer of safe passage out of the country and that instead—with La*Moneda Palace under bombardment from tanks and airplanes and in flames—would take his own life."

Last edited by subaruguru; Oct 28, 2004 at 04:04 PM.
Old Oct 28, 2004 | 04:51 PM
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pre-coup involvment:
http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/vol47no3/article03.html

"Coincident with the White House’s decision to put Viaux on hold, a Chilean officer approached the United States requesting funds for a similar “kidnap Schneider” plan. Although it initially seemed possible that he was “fronting” for Viaux, the CIA concluded that he was not and decided to provide the individual with some funds to purchase weapons."

Kinda sounds like they provided some money for weapons. Maybe I'm wrong though . I thought they had weapons already, why do they need our support? Maybe the weapons factory was broke down that day.

As for my definition, it answered your question. You are rephrasing and asking me to make comments about Germany. I never said Geramany didn't support terrorism. Does this fit the definition? Is that your question? We are talking about Chile, don't change the subject. The definition needs no further refinement. Furthermore I don't feel a need to discuss any exception the rule arguments, which you seem to love so much.

Also, the sources say:

The CIA is acknowledging for the first time the extent of its deep involvement in Chile, where it dealt with coup-plotters, false propagandists and assassins.
Which is in direct contadiction of your previous post:

Originally Posted by subaruguru
The US involvement was limited, and it didn't back Pinochet.
From July 1975
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB...B8/ch04-01.htm

"During the last year and a half we have doen what we could to supprt the Chilean govt." etc....

...as for military sales, we held off until July 1st"

Which also contradicts pretty much everything else you say about the topic.

Now that we have proven:

1) CIA/US gave money/arms to support a coup and depose a democartically elected leader

2) Sold arms and and funded Pinochet during his reign of political terror

3) That terrorism is indeed the use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.


All qoutes from the actual CIA files, so please, quibbling over the source.

I shall move on to another example of US helping terrorism.

Edit:
Please provide a source for the German law outlawing people speaking out in favor of the *****. We can discuss this in another thread. I don't want to dilute this one anymore.

Last edited by syncopation; Oct 28, 2004 at 04:57 PM.
Old Oct 28, 2004 | 05:04 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by syncopation
pre-coup involvment:
http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/vol47no3/article03.html

"Coincident with the White House’s decision to put Viaux on hold, a Chilean officer approached the United States requesting funds for a similar “kidnap Schneider” plan. Although it initially seemed possible that he was “fronting” for Viaux, the CIA concluded that he was not and decided to provide the individual with some funds to purchase weapons."

Kinda sounds like they provided some money for weapons. Maybe I'm wrong though . I thought they had weapons already, why do they need our support? Maybe the weapons factory was broke down that day.

As for my definition, it answered your question. You are rephrasing and asking me to make comments about Germany. I never said Geramany didn't support terrorism. Does this fit the definition? Is that your question? We are talking about Chile, don't change the subject. The definition needs no further refinement. Furthermore I don't feel a need to discuss any exception the rule arguments, which you seem to love so much.

Also, the sources say:



Which is in direct contadiction of your previous post:



From July 1975
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB...B8/ch04-01.htm

"During the last year and a half we have doen what we could to supprt the Chilean govt." etc....

...as for military sales, we held off until July 1st"

Which also contradicts pretty much everything else you say about the topic.

Now that we have proven:

1) CIA/US gave money/arms to support a coup and depose a democartically elected leader

2) Sold arms and and funded Pinochet during his reign of political terror

3) That terrorism is indeed the use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.


All qoutes from the actual CIA files, so please, quibbling over the source.

I shall move on to another example of US helping terrorism.
Now you're being actively dishonest, because if you read through those sources you saw:

1. Schneider's assassination had nothing to do with Pinochet over-throwing Allende. I said already the CIA backed failed attempts, and was stumped because the failed programs tended to strengthen Allende's political position. Pinochet, head of the army, went on his own. As for your "machine guns" example...that was three submachine guns. If that counts as arming a military, then I can understand why you're having so much trouble defining terrorism. Words apparently have absolutely no limits to you.

Skipping down to three:

No, we did not prove that definition. The whole point of my arguing it is that you have a definition which is loose, and which ridiculously makes even things like Germany's outlawing **** propaganda technically "terrorism." That was the point of the germany example, and that's also why you ignored it. It makes it obvious that your use of the word "terrorism" is so diluted as to make almost anything fall within its set.

To define terrorism the way you did makes it a useless word, because it's just a perjorative for "violence of any kind even remotely related to political effects." If all war, and all crime, is terrorism, then there's no need to even have the word, and every political system ever is terrorist. That is why your definition is silly.

As for 2): You totally ignored the legal argument, and I know why: Because you have no clue what is "unlawful" in international law. You also don't have any idea what terrorism is, legally speaking. So, no, you haven't proven a "reign of terrorism"....whether people were afraid of pinochet or not.

Again, the 1975 support is a full two years after the military coup which, all your sources explicitly say, WAS NOT organized or supported by the CIA. Read the sources. The CIA did not fund Pinochet, nor was Pinochet working for the CIA. Pinochet led a military coup as army chief of staff....and that's why he had weapons. I'm curious as to how that point confuses you; do you think the chilean army would've been unarmed except for the CIA???
Old Oct 28, 2004 | 06:19 PM
  #64  
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subaruguru so was Saddam a terrorist?
Old Oct 28, 2004 | 11:33 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Unregistered
subaruguru so was Saddam a terrorist?
Yes, he was, but not because he outlawed all free speech and imposed the death penalty for it. He was a terrorist because he paid for suicide bombings in israel and openly supported all anti-western terrorist attacks.
Old Oct 29, 2004 | 01:08 AM
  #66  
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So you think sucide bombers in Israel are terrorist but not Israel?
Old Oct 29, 2004 | 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Unregistered
So you think sucide bombers in Israel are terrorist but not Israel?
Do you see any difference in how both sides in the conflict are waging war?
Old Oct 29, 2004 | 09:07 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by Oaf
Do you see any difference in how both sides in the conflict are waging war?
Bingo
Old Oct 29, 2004 | 10:46 AM
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...so to be a non-terrorist, you just have to have a 'legitimate' government pay for and back up your actions...the line between terrorist and guerilla (sp?) fighter is like the line between religion and cult...very very thin, and subjective as well.
Old Oct 29, 2004 | 11:38 AM
  #70  
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GREECE 1947-49 — Supports and directs extreme right in civil war.

PHILIPPINES 1948-54 — CIA directs war against leftist Huk Rebellion

Iran-1953 CIA directs overthrow of elected left-leaning government, installs Shah.

GUATEMALA 1954 — CIA directs exile invasion and overthrow of leftist government; military junta installed.

Ecuador 1961— The CIA-backed military forces the democratically elected President Jose Velasco to resign. Vice President Carlos Arosemana replaces him; the CIA fills the now vacant vice presidency with its own man.

Congo (Zaire) 1961— The CIA assassinates the democratically elected Patrice Lumumba. However, public support for Lumumba’s politics runs so high that the CIA cannot clearly install his opponents in power. Four years of political turmoil follow.

Dominican Republic 1963 — The CIA overthrows the democratically elected Juan Bosch in a military coup. The CIA installs a repressive, right-wing junta.

Ecuador 1963 — A CIA-backed military coup overthrows President Arosemana, whose independent (not socialist) policies have become unacceptable to Washington. A military junta assumes command, cancels the 1964 elections, and begins abusing human rights.

All sounds to stangly familiar....
Old Oct 29, 2004 | 11:49 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Oaf
Do you see any difference in how both sides in the conflict are waging war?
So one uses technology to kill others the other uses his life? Yeah I see the difference, one is poor one is rich.
Old Oct 29, 2004 | 12:10 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by Unregistered
So one uses technology to kill others the other uses his life? Yeah I see the difference, one is poor one is rich.
Really? That's all you see being done?
Hmmmm.
Old Oct 29, 2004 | 12:15 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by Oaf
Really? That's all you see being done?
Hmmmm.
Well how do you expect them to fight back? And of course not but that is about as white and black as it can get.
Old Oct 29, 2004 | 01:20 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by syncopation
GREECE 1947-49 — Supports and directs extreme right in civil war.

PHILIPPINES 1948-54 — CIA directs war against leftist Huk Rebellion

Iran-1953 CIA directs overthrow of elected left-leaning government, installs Shah.

GUATEMALA 1954 — CIA directs exile invasion and overthrow of leftist government; military junta installed.

Ecuador 1961— The CIA-backed military forces the democratically elected President Jose Velasco to resign. Vice President Carlos Arosemana replaces him; the CIA fills the now vacant vice presidency with its own man.

Congo (Zaire) 1961— The CIA assassinates the democratically elected Patrice Lumumba. However, public support for Lumumba’s politics runs so high that the CIA cannot clearly install his opponents in power. Four years of political turmoil follow.

Dominican Republic 1963 — The CIA overthrows the democratically elected Juan Bosch in a military coup. The CIA installs a repressive, right-wing junta.

Ecuador 1963 — A CIA-backed military coup overthrows President Arosemana, whose independent (not socialist) policies have become unacceptable to Washington. A military junta assumes command, cancels the 1964 elections, and begins abusing human rights.

All sounds to stangly familiar....
I'm glad you finally moved away from Chile. I'll check on your new examples. The one odd thing is that if you added up all members of the CIA over time, there wouldn't be enough of them to pull off half of these moves by themselves....but that's beside the point, because again, civil wars and conquests are NOT terrorism. The fact that a government changes doesn't mean it changed by terrorism; usually, terrorism happens because rebels aren't strong enough to actually overthrow a government. If they were backed by a powerful state and had the military capability to conduct warfare, they wouldn't need to behead people on television and ask for things after. So, great....but not examples of terrorism.

To Unregistered and MVWRX:

No, the defining point is that you target civillians for the purpose of scaring their governments or organizations in to doing what you want. Organizing a guerilla army and taking on government forces is not terrorism. Neither is sending in your troops to go house to house kicking *** to look for terrorists, like in Israel. Bombing bus stops by having women strap themselves with explosives, and beheading people on tv for the purpose of making a political demand, is terrorism.
Old Oct 29, 2004 | 02:20 PM
  #75  
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"No, the defining point is that you target civillians for the purpose of scaring their governments " Isn't that what Israel is doing? They are tearing down whole towns isn't that targeting civillians? And isn't going through peoples homes "searching" for terrorist a scare tactic? Or do terrorist walk around with signs saying, "Im a terrorist!! GET ME!!!" You get my point, Israel is doing terrorism just as Palestininas are.



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