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US sponsored Terrorism (for subaruguru)

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Old Oct 27, 2004 | 02:41 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by subaruguru
LOL, good idea! I think I'm going to go practice some ninja moves on the lawn right now to impress some ladies with mine.

You, my friend, must be no true Ninja. To impress the ladies would require revealing your true identity which any true ninja would know is unacceptable. Though, I guess you could impess the lady with your moves... then when she tries to make sweet sweet love to you, you could just refuse to remove your mask. Good idea, Guru, very good.

-Chris

I think I am going to apply my Ninja Mask in the car before I drive home... (thread hijack done)

Last edited by bassplayrr; Oct 27, 2004 at 02:44 PM.
Old Oct 27, 2004 | 02:45 PM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by Salty
Way to blow that way out of proportion! I should nominate you for an I-Club Oscar, MVWRX. Don't forget that this is a car forum...

No, I did not bring him to the forum to argue my side in order to spew propaganda and rule the world!11!!!one!!!!11! [/sarcasm] It just so happens that Dave enjoys a good debate just like the next guy. I wasn't about to bring a person here to start meaning posts and arguments *cough* like some people here *cough*.
Perfect response from a propagandist. I know it's a car forum. But why would you invite someone to argue inteligently about cars?!?! You didn't...you invited him to argue about politics. Which is weak. I didn't blow anything out of proportion. And I don't come here just to get in arguments, I've had many good debates about politics and learned a lot from other conservatives here in the forum. Just not you or guru because neither of you ever concede a damn thing, you just maintain that you're UberPolitical to everyone.
Old Oct 27, 2004 | 02:59 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by MVWRX
Perfect response from a propagandist. I know it's a car forum. But why would you invite someone to argue inteligently about cars?!?! You didn't...you invited him to argue about politics. Which is weak. I didn't blow anything out of proportion. And I don't come here just to get in arguments, I've had many good debates about politics and learned a lot from other conservatives here in the forum. Just not you or guru because neither of you ever concede a damn thing, you just maintain that you're UberPolitical to everyone.

In case you haven't figured it out this happens to be a political forum. Where were you when this forum wasn't doing so well in the beginning? We used to have less than a few posts a day and now we have regulars, including yourself. So I'm a guilty "propagandist" when I was only trying to make the forum more active and interesting? Your allegations toward me are weak, not me inviting subaruguru.
Old Oct 27, 2004 | 03:05 PM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by subaruguru
As for your south american example, chile, we discussed this on iclub already. The US involvement was limited, and it didn't back Pinochet. Pinochet was a general who initiated a military coup, and Allende committed suicide rather than leave his country.
I hadn't realised this may have already been discussed, but this information is incorrect. Here are the declassified briefs: (links work, I promise)

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB...B8/nsaebb8.htm


If there is other relevant info that I am not awar of, please post a link.

US involvement was anything but limited:

Twice in the 1960s, the CIA spent large sums of money to influence the outcome of elections in Chile and to install a president of the United States' choosing. Eventually it failed and democracy prevailed in the election of President Salvador Allende Gossens. Under the direction of President Nixon, the CIA organized the famous Track I and Track II destabilization of Chile in order to oust Allende.

CIA Deputy Director for Operations, Richard Helms (who later became CIA Director) testified before the congressional Oversight Committee and lied. He was later indicted for lying to the Congress about the Chilean operation and plea-bargained a suspended sentence and a fine, which the association of CIA exes paid for him. Finally, he offered a copy of the notes he had made in the National Security Council meeting in the White House where he was ordered to mount the Chilean operation. He had jotted down the following instructions: "Make the Chilean economy scream."

He testified that when he return to CIA headquarters at Langley to give his staff their marching orders, even they were dumfounded at the cynicism of the operation. Helms told them, "Gentlemen, let's not sit around wringing our hands. We've been given a job to do."

With the help of the U.S. military, which had solid connections with the Chilean military through the American-sponsored international military fraternity, and with the help of certain multinational corporations like ITT, the CIA mounted the successful operation to oustthe democratically-elected president of Chile, who was killed in the process.

At one point prior to the coup, General Rene Schneider, the pro-U.S. head of the Chilean military, was an obstacle because he was stubbornly supporting democracy and the constitutional process. So they killed him too and installed the monster Pinochet in power.

When Henry Kissinger was grilled by the Congress about the Chilean operation, he had this to say: "Yes, the issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves."

Last edited by Salty; Oct 27, 2004 at 03:08 PM. Reason: fixed his [/quotes]
Old Oct 27, 2004 | 03:11 PM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by syncopation
I hadn't realised this may have already been discussed, but this information is incorrect. Here are the declassified briefs: (links work, I promise)

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB...B8/nsaebb8.htm


If there is other relevant info that I am not awar of, please post a link.

US involvement was anything but limited:
Read your own source. That's exactly the source MVWRX and I discussed in our own thread about Chile. First of all, there's not a single instance of terrorism listed in your quote. Second, the US didn't install Pinochet. He didn't need the US. The sources pretty clearly state that earlier attempts to unseat Allende by the CIA ended up strengthening his political position, and so the CIA was at a loss for what to do. Then Pinochet surprised everyone by manhandling the situation and effecting a military coup.

So where's the terrorism? And did you not see in there that the CIA did not know what Pinochet was going to do?
Old Oct 27, 2004 | 03:11 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by MVWRX
Just not you or guru because neither of you ever concede a damn thing, you just maintain that you're UberPolitical to everyone.
Look who they look up to. Bushy can't see that he's been wrong either.
Old Oct 27, 2004 | 03:15 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by njc200
Look who they look up to. Bushy can't see that he's been wrong either.
Good point. I guess I'll have to concede everything I ever said now.

Not.
Old Oct 27, 2004 | 03:23 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by Salty
...Don't forget that this is a car forum...


In case you haven't figured it out this happens to be a political forum...


You confused me Salty...I know that i-club is a car forum... and that Teh Politics Forum is a political forum.
In the beginning (of the politics forum)? I wasn't aware i-Club existed to be honest. But I have looked at the pages of the politics forum from before I joined. Doesn't look like it did too badly in terms of visits and debates. But I can see why you think it was doing badly; there were more liberals than conservatives.
Old Oct 27, 2004 | 03:33 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by MVWRX
But I can see why you think it was doing badly; there were more liberals than conservatives.
Actually, no. It was because "Salty" initiated damn near every thread in the beginning. Anything else you'd like to suggest -or- add, MVWRX?
Old Oct 27, 2004 | 03:36 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by Salty
Actually, no. It was because "Salty" initiated damn near every thread in the beginning. Anything else you'd like to suggest -or- add, MVWRX?

You've got to be kidding...dre started almost every thread on the first page of this forum...recently, yes, you've started almost all of the threads. I'm not saying I don't appreciate you moderating and finding interesting things for us to discuss. But it's hard to enjoy a debate when the other side is completely unwilling to even understand any view point but their own.
Old Oct 27, 2004 | 03:40 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by MVWRX
You've got to be kidding...dre started almost every thread on the first page of this forum...recently, yes, you've started almost all of the threads. I'm not saying I don't appreciate you moderating and finding interesting things for us to discuss. But it's hard to enjoy a debate when the other side is completely unwilling to even understand any view point but their own.
Anyone care to debunk MVWRX on this?!

For the record, I have been influenced by others posts and admitted fault and defeat in other debates... doesn't happen too often though.
Old Oct 27, 2004 | 03:40 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Salty
Anyone care to debunk MVWRX on this?!

For the record, I have been influenced by others posts and admitted fault and defeat in other debates... doesn't happen too often though.
I've conceded good points too. But I haven't seen you have to do that for MVWRX yet.
Old Oct 27, 2004 | 03:50 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by subaruguru
Read your own source. That's exactly the source MVWRX and I discussed in our own thread about Chile. First of all, there's not a single instance of terrorism listed in your quote. Second, the US didn't install Pinochet. He didn't need the US. The sources pretty clearly state that earlier attempts to unseat Allende by the CIA ended up strengthening his political position, and so the CIA was at a loss for what to do. Then Pinochet surprised everyone by manhandling the situation and effecting a military coup.

So where's the terrorism? And did you not see in there that the CIA did not know what Pinochet was going to do?
You'll have to remind me which document, as there are several and thru a quick peruse I did not find what you are suggesting.

As of July 1975 we supported and armed Pinochet, which I would consider aiding terrorism.

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB...B8/ch04-01.htm

Not to mention that we (CIA) deposed the democratically elected leader prior to this.
Old Oct 27, 2004 | 03:55 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Salty
Anyone care to debunk MVWRX on this?!

You started 43/167 threads in the first month of the forum (7.12.04-8.13.04)
Dre started 50/167 in the same time period.
Don't claim things that aren't true. You start a much higher percentage of the threads now than 'in the beginning'. So if you're qualification for how well the forum is doing is what % of the threads you have to start, it's gotten worse.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, you never concede even when the facts are right there for you to see.


BTW...what happened to Dre? It'd be nice to hear from both moderators...

Last edited by MVWRX; Oct 27, 2004 at 04:00 PM.
Old Oct 27, 2004 | 04:34 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by MVWRX
You started 43/167 threads in the first month of the forum (7.12.04-8.13.04)
Dre started 50/167 in the same time period.
Don't claim things that aren't true. You start a much higher percentage of the threads now than 'in the beginning'. So if you're qualification for how well the forum is doing is what % of the threads you have to start, it's gotten worse.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, you never concede even when the facts are right there for you to see.


BTW...what happened to Dre? It'd be nice to hear from both moderators...
Ouch you got me! Name:  176.gif
Views: 19
Size:  1.9 KB

Let me go and cry in the shower as I burn my keyboard over a 7 post difference. *sigh*

Go ahead and do your little victory dance, MVWRX... it's the first and last time that will ever happen.



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