syncopation

iTrader: (3)

This is an effort to start a new thread about US sponsored terrorism. Subaruguru has written in another thread that he does not believe that this occurs (paraphrase, of course).

So possibly with the help of my fellow dissedent i-clubbers we can help this confused law student:

Top three

Guatemala:

For the CIA backing of terrorism in Guatemala, see congressman Bill Delahunt's press release in 1999 or the Guatemala Human Rights Commission/USA Annual Report 1997 - 1998.

Estimated civilian deaths: over 200,000 people.

Available at http://www.house.gov/delahunt/guat.htm

Available at http://www.ghrc-usa.org/archives/annual/annual98.htm"


Chile:

"The violent overthrow of the democratically-elected Popular Unity government of Salvador Allende changed the course of the country ... Revelations that President Richard Nixon had ordered the CIA to 'make the economy scream' in Chile to 'prevent Allende from coming to power or to unseat him,' prompted a major scandal in the mid-1970s, and a major investigation by the U.S. Senate." ...

An unknown quantity of documents remain lost or classified, but those that have been released confirm efforts to 'destabilize' Chile economically. Chile has been suffering ever since."

1. Available at http://www.house.gov/delahunt/guat.htm

2. Available at http://www.ghrc-usa.org/archives/annual/annual98.htm"

Panama
1980s

"Systematically, the Contras have been assassinating religious workers, teachers, health workers, elected officials, government administrators. Remember the 'Assassination Manual' that surfaced in 1984? It caused such a stir that President Reagan had to address it himself in the presidential debates with Walter Mondale. They use terror to traumatize society so that it cannot function.
...
[after describing various atrocities - the kind of thing that makes Osama Bin Laden seem kind and gentle by comparison:] "These are the activities done by the Contras. The Contras are the people President Reagan called 'freedom fighters.' He said: 'They are the moral equivalent of our founding fathers.'"
"
Estimated civilian deaths: over 13,000 people.

"Chile and the United States: Declassified Documents Relating to the Military Coup, September 11, 1973" by Peter Kornbluh, National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 8 .

I'll get some flack for this one but.....
Vietnam
1945-1974
This is "The Big One." What America did in south-east Asia shocked all levels of American society - right up to the President:

"President Ford was reacting to Senate and House committee reports both concluding that the CIA had become a 'rogue elephant' crushing foreign citizens under foot in its bid to win the Cold War. For instance, more than 20,000 Vietnamese were killed during the CIA-guided Operation Phoenix intended to weed out communist 'agents' from South Vietnam." (BBC report, "CIA's licence to kill" Tuesday, 23 October, 2001)
Testimony before congress indicates that these "agents" included women and children.

"At one point Congressman Ogden Reid pulled out a list signed by a CIA officer that named VC cadre rounded up in a particular action in 1967. 'It is of some interest that on this list, 33 of the 61 names were women and some persons were as young as 11 and 12,' noted Reid."
"Between 1967 to 1973 an estimated 40,000 Vietnamese were killed by CIA-sponsored "counterterror" and "hunter-killer" teams, and hundreds of thousands were sent to secret interrogation centers." It was an ugly time. In the end the U.S. public decided that the U.S. was wrong to start this war, and the war was finally ended.

Estimated total civilian deaths: 2,500,000 — 3,500,000 people.

For an online summary of the origins and evils of the Vietnam war, see http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/ vietnamgenocide/Vietnam.html

If you need more sources, let me know, I'm just lazy today.

Feel free to debunk or add to the list.

Salty

iTrader: (14)

The links don't work, syncopation. Maybe you should learn to properly link URL's before going on a rampage? Just a suggestion...

Furthermore, Dave (subaruguru) is one of the smartest and well-rounded individuals I have ever had the privilege of knowing. You better be able to bite off what you can chew...

syncopation

iTrader: (3)

It's no rampage. Can we please keep discussion on topic? Perhaps you support dave because he shares your political views, not because he is intelligent. He seems like a bright fellow. How nice for you. I will find updated links, sorry. Doesn't invalidate the topic or argument though.

syncopation

iTrader: (3)

This link works and it links all the stories up plus a hell of a lot more:

http://free.freespeech.org/americans...yofTerror.html

Salty

iTrader: (14)

QUOTE=syncopation]It's no rampage. Can we please keep discussion on topic? Perhaps you support dave because he shares your political views, not because he is intelligent. He seems like a bright fellow. How nice for you. I will find updated links, sorry. Doesn't invalidate the topic or argument though.[/QUOTE]

Although we share many views we have also disagreed on many things since I’ve known him. That said, do you think I would have invited him to this forum if he didn't have the ability to support similar views, intelligently? Nope.

You have got to be joking by posting that as your source, right? Even if the statistics are true (I wouldn't know because I haven't verified them yet), I would have rather heard these figures come from Olmek's father than that url.

/Waits quietly on the sidelines...

SilverScoober02

While I do believe the US sponsors a form of terrorism when it suits them I agree with Salty that that link is bad, very, very bad.

MVWRX

iTrader: (1)

Wait...so you recruited him to argue on your side!?!?! Wow...I used to think you both (Salty and Guru) were independant, intelligent people who just happened to not agree with many of my political views. Now I see that you're both propagandists who feel that their mission is to degrade and berate those of us on i-club who have liberal viewpoints.

On the topic at hand...if you think America has never supported terrorists in other countries, you really need to look into it more. This isn't 'liberal anti-American communist propaganda.' This is called the truth. And yes, sometimes the truth is ugly even when it's about America.

Salty

iTrader: (14)

Way to blow that way out of proportion! I should nominate you for an I-Club Oscar, MVWRX. Don't forget that this is a car forum...

No, I did not bring him to the forum to argue my side in order to spew propaganda and rule the world!11!!!one!!!!11! [/sarcasm] It just so happens that Dave enjoys a good debate just like the next guy. I wasn't about to bring a person here to start meaning posts and arguments *cough* like some people here *cough*.

syncopation

iTrader: (3)

You may want to try to dissprove US sponsored terrorism another way. I could link off of www.dogs.com for all I care, it doesn't invalidate the truth.

The site is a bit over the top, but the facts are still correct. It just has a nice hodgpodge of US terrorism links. After all, we liberals are all crazy and believe that everything is a conspiracy !

It's very hard to list cnn or msnbc because they don't carry this kind of information. I suggest reading John Stockwell's "The Secret Wars of the CIA"

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/St...Stockwell.html

But that is a lot of really heavy reading, but you may enjoy it Salty.

I am curious if subaruguru owns a subaru? Where did this conspiracy of like minds begin? Was it a republican chat room or i-club? j/k

subaruguru

The problem with your first sources isn't credibility or the fact that they don't work. It's that you don't cite examples of terrorism. In central america in the 80's there were a series of Civil Wars that the united states took sides on. Supporting one side in a civil war, even a brutal side, is not terrorism. You seem to be making the mistake of assuming that all war crimes are terrorist acts. State actors or parties in an intra state war that invade towns and do killing are not, by any definition of the word, committing terrorism. Conquering your enemy, even if it's illegal, isn't trying to terrorize him into doing what you want...that's called winning the war by military strength.

As for your south american example, chile, we discussed this on iclub already. The US involvement was limited, and it didn't back Pinochet. Pinochet was a general who initiated a military coup, and Allende committed suicide rather than leave his country. The CIA was surprised (probably pleasantly) by what Pinochet did. Note also that a military coup is not, by any sane definition of the word, terrorism. State actors or quasi-state actors in civil wars that attack military targets and occupy territory are precisely what terrorists are not. This is why you hear everyone talking about why it's hard to fight terrorists; because they don't have government offices or occupy territory like military groups do.

freespeech.org and its anti-semitic crap I'm not going to respond to. You've got to do a better for a source before we can talk about Vietnam. That's the equivalent of listing white stormfront statistics for a debate on affirmative action.

subaruguru

Thanks for the compliment, Eric. Btw, board, Salty is the most high speed soldier on the planet...except for Olmek's dad, of course.

syncopation

iTrader: (3)

Ok, then let us begin by agreeing on a definition for terrorism:

Terrorism:
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

Sounds good to me, do I need to add anything to make any of you happy? I want to make sure and play by your rules.

subaruguru

Yes, add that the people or property are unrelated to any military action, and that the attacks occur by irregular means. Total and complete absence of any authority to conduct a war is also typical.

bassplayrr

iTrader: (9)

My theory is that Salty is Olmek's dad. Dah Dah DAAAAHHHHHH! I can't even think about politics right now. All I can think about is how and want to get the hell out of the office so I can try my Ninza mask!

-Chris

subaruguru

LOL, good idea! I think I'm going to go practice some ninja moves on the lawn right now to impress some ladies with mine.