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Old Mar 18, 2009 | 05:38 PM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by Superglue WRX

New management means new problems. In a general sense, it depends on which one makes you more comfortable.
How true!
Old Mar 19, 2009 | 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul@dbtuned
Exactly.

I have no use for a governemnt.
Do you?
Let's start a bromance.
Old Mar 19, 2009 | 06:16 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by Paul@dbtuned
John Locke in his Second Treatise on Government explains that civil society was created for the purpose of protecting property. In this principle, he examines the origin of the word “property,” which when translated into Latin, means “one’s own” or “oneself.” In this, Locke concluded the purpose of government was to protect life, liberty, and property.
Any else is unnecessary & not required.
That reminds me of Rousseau; he argued that civil society is a conspiracy by the rich to guarantee their plunder.
Old Mar 19, 2009 | 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by saqwarrior
Let's start a bromance.
I only pitch.
Old Mar 19, 2009 | 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Superglue WRX
The government invented your internets. There's one use.

Then there's the restrictive exhaust systems and whatnot that your customers pay you to upgrade. Tick another box for emissions control.

Then there's the civil liberties and blah blah blah....
Originally Posted by Paul@dbtuned
None of this is related to a gov't.
Originally Posted by Superglue WRX
Please elaborate....
Originally Posted by Paul@dbtuned
I can't..I'm a little sick.

Buuuut....

You'll agree that any form of gov't is restrictive & un-natural to the natural man.

Superglue, I'll bite:

1. Internet: if we eliminate government we do not eliminate private enterprise, ingenuity, or invention. In fact, a majority of what you know as "the internet" was invented and implemented by the private sector. If you were to travel back and look at the ARPANet, you wouldn't even recognize it as "the internet."

2. Emissions control removal as income: that is only a very small part of a tune shop's income--not to mention it doesn't apply many places outside of California.

3. Civil liberties: these have to be guaranteed by government to protect us from government taking them. Circular logic.
Old Mar 19, 2009 | 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by saqwarrior
Superglue, I'll bite:

1. Internet: if we eliminate government we do not eliminate private enterprise, ingenuity, or invention. In fact, a majority of what you know as "the internet" was invented and implemented by the private sector. If you were to travel back and look at the ARPANet, you wouldn't even recognize it as "the internet."

2. Emissions control removal as income: that is only a very small part of a tune shop's income--not to mention it doesn't apply many places outside of California.

3. Civil liberties: these have to be guaranteed by government to protect us from government taking them. Circular logic.
1) Who funded the development of the internet? Chicken, meet egg.

2) Emissions regulations apply to nearly all passenger cars in the country, catalytic converters aren't exclusive to CA. It was just one example. Private industry isn't looking out for my best interests any more than the government. You think car mfgs really care about seat belts, air bags, and crumple zones if government mandates and high insurance premiums didn't exist?

3) Civil liberties are to protect people from anyone taking them, not just the government. It's just as illegal for the government to come into my house and search my belonging w/o a warrant as it is for my ex-girlfriend. Civil liberties aren't exclusive to prevent of the government.

The absence government leaves a power vacuum. Anyone hungry enough will gladly fill that vacuum using any power necessary. Could be someone from this country, could be another country, could be a combined effort from other countries. There are resources here that people will want to control for personal gain. There's no getting around that.

The Constitution is only a piece of paper unless people are willing to implement it.
Old Mar 20, 2009 | 07:51 AM
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=Superglue WRX;2559409]1) Who funded the development of the internet? Chicken, meet egg.
Sure, R&D was most likely funded with tax payer dollars to an extent but the internet that you and I know exists to sell products..
The High speed, Java or HTML based, user friendly websites are the result of commercial interest.. Trust me no exclusively .mil system as user friendly as the internet.

If it was just the .mil side we'd still likely be using dial up with the modem you plug your phone into..

2) Emissions regulations apply to nearly all passenger cars in the country, catalytic converters aren't exclusive to CA. It was just one example. Private industry isn't looking out for my best interests any more than the government. You think car mfgs really care about seat belts, air bags, and crumple zones if government mandates and high insurance premiums didn't exist?
Private industry cares very much about your interests.. They spend billions every year to know what you like, what you want in a product, your hopes fears, dreams, you name it..
They care because of the bottom line..
You think the farmer in Nebraska or the Rancher in Texas or Wyoming gives two piles of prairie dog poop about some Subaru driving kid in East Bay???
Of course not!! But the Steak and Corn and Wheat you consume puts money in their pockets.
Manufacturers didn't used to all have Airbags (Which you know), first it was the Volvos, then BMW and Mercedes.. Pretty soon the tech got older and these things became cheaper.. Soon you got em on Toyotas, etc etc and on down the line.. By the time they were mandatory (Are Airbags mandatory now?) everyone already had them so they could compete with other cars that had them.
And WTH does the government know about my best interests?? If they did they wouldn't be giving 1/2 of My money to people that don't work? And they wouldn't be spending my money taking C-17s and G-5s from Travis to San Fran cause they can't be bothered to drive to Napa, while telling me my subaru's is evil because it's not a Prius..

At least Toyota will fix problems you have with their product.. McDonalds will even give you a new burger.



The absence government leaves a power vacuum. Anyone hungry enough will gladly fill that vacuum using any power necessary. Could be someone from this country, could be another country, could be a combined effort from other countries. There are resources here that people will want to control for personal gain. There's no getting around that.

The Constitution is only a piece of paper unless people are willing to implement it.
This is why the Founders considered government a necessary evil. They designed it to be extremely limited in scope and power...
Federal government was designed to have 3 charges.
1. Provide for common defense.. (IE. raise army when necessary)
2. Be a moderator in cases of State to State problems.
3. Facilitate in interstate commerce (building interstate Highways)..(Notice not Regulate interstate commerce)

All other things the government does now is mission creep..
Old Mar 20, 2009 | 07:56 AM
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Didn't Apple have an "internet" type thingy waaaay back in the day...used just by Apple?

This is why the Founders considered government a necessary evil. They designed it to be extremely limited in scope and power...
Federal government was designed to have 3 charges.
1. Provide for common defense.. (IE. raise army when necessary)
2. Be a moderator in cases of State to State problems.
3. Facilitate in interstate commerce (building interstate Highways)..(Notice not Regulate interstate commerce)

All other things the government does now is mission creep..
The important part is, how do we return to the root mission?
Old Mar 20, 2009 | 08:10 AM
  #84  
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The important part is, how do we return to the root mission?
Isn't that always the Million dollar question??
Old Mar 20, 2009 | 08:14 AM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Superglue WRX
1) Who funded the development of the internet? Chicken, meet egg.
I'm not trying to be an *** here, but you should study the history of the technology more before using it as an example like this. Yes, ARPANet (which I pointed out earlier is nowhere near recognizable as "the internet") was initially created by the DOD, but everything after that was done by the private sector, starting with private universities when the DOD handed it off to them to develop further.

And if you really want to follow the money, sure, the DOD created the ARPANet--but who funds the DOD? Oh snap... taxes. So to answer your question of "who funded the development"--we did.

Originally Posted by Superglue WRX
2) Emissions regulations apply to nearly all passenger cars in the country, catalytic converters aren't exclusive to CA. It was just one example. Private industry isn't looking out for my best interests any more than the government. You think car mfgs really care about seat belts, air bags, and crumple zones if government mandates and high insurance premiums didn't exist?
I think private industry would rapidly figure out that killing off your customers is a poor business model that is not conducive to profit.

Originally Posted by Superglue WRX
3) Civil liberties are to protect people from anyone taking them, not just the government. It's just as illegal for the government to come into my house and search my belonging w/o a warrant as it is for my ex-girlfriend. Civil liberties aren't exclusive to prevent of the government.
You should read the Federalist Papers. In those articles the founding fathers clearly describe why they protected certain rights and structured the government the way they did. I highly recommend No. 84, which expounds on the debate for the addition of the Bill of Rights.

Their assertions do not coincide with yours; almost every choice they made was to keep government in check.

Originally Posted by Superglue WRX
The absence government leaves a power vacuum. Anyone hungry enough will gladly fill that vacuum using any power necessary. Could be someone from this country, could be another country, could be a combined effort from other countries. There are resources here that people will want to control for personal gain. There's no getting around that.
What power would there be for such a person to gain if there was no hierarchical structure of government?

Originally Posted by Superglue WRX
The Constitution is only a piece of paper unless people are willing to implement it.
I've long maintained that the brilliance of the founding fathers reached its apex with the original constitution. They created something that was better than they were, something that in its original form required no changes through hundreds of years to stay relevant.
Old Mar 20, 2009 | 08:16 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by Paul@dbtuned
The important part is, how do we return to the root mission?
You can not has.

We deserve the country we get with each vote.
Old Mar 20, 2009 | 08:18 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Paul@dbtuned
Didn't Apple have an "internet" type thingy waaaay back in the day...used just by Apple?

The important part is, how do we return to the root mission?
I think you already know the answer to that. I'll copy a couple quotes though, just in case you don't know where I'm going with this:

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." -- John F. Kennedy

"The answer to 1984 is 1776." -- I don't remember where I got this from.
Old Mar 20, 2009 | 08:23 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by Paul@dbtuned
I only pitch.
Buck futter!
Old Mar 20, 2009 | 08:35 AM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by saqwarrior
I'm not trying to be an *** here, but you should study the history of the technology more before using it as an example like this. Yes, ARPANet (which I pointed out earlier is nowhere near recognizable as "the internet") was initially created by the DOD, but everything after that was done by the private sector, starting with private universities when the DOD handed it off to them to develop further.

And if you really want to follow the money, sure, the DOD created the ARPANet--but who funds the DOD? Oh snap... taxes. So to answer your question of "who funded the development"--we did.
The government funded what became the foundation of the internet. That's all I said. I'm well aware that my Comcast connection and ebay aren't government entities.

The point is, it started with government funding. One can only guess as to where the internet would be without this beginning. But I'm more interested in what actually happened, not what would have happened if the government didn't fund the development just to further my point that capitalism would have invented it.



Originally Posted by saqwarrior
I think private industry would rapidly figure out that killing off your customers is a poor business model that is not conducive to profit.
Not necessarily. I think 1960's GM and Ford would have been content convincing people bigger = safer, and if that's not enough, we have this new fancy lap belt that may or may not prevent you from flying through the window.

Originally Posted by saqwarrior
You should read the Federalist Papers. In those articles the founding fathers clearly describe why they protected certain rights and structured the government the way they did. I highly recommend No. 84, which expounds on the debate for the addition of the Bill of Rights.

Their assertions do not coincide with yours; almost every choice they made was to keep government in check.
I wasn't aware that I was promoting the abolition of checks and balances.


Originally Posted by saqwarrior
What power would there be for such a person to gain if there was no hierarchical structure of government?
King?



Originally Posted by saqwarrior
I've long maintained that the brilliance of the founding fathers reached its apex with the original constitution. They created something that was better than they were, something that in its original form required no changes through hundreds of years to stay relevant.
I agree. And I'm really happy I live here because of it. And I'm not interested in blaming all of my problems on the government, must be that who personal responsibility I hear about from people who like to point fingers. We get what we vote for.
Old Mar 20, 2009 | 09:27 AM
  #90  
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I've long maintained that the brilliance of the founding fathers reached its apex with the original constitution. They created something that was better than they were, something that in its original form required no changes through hundreds of years to stay relevant.
Agreed...
Most of the problems we see now are a result (both directly and indirectly) of stepping away from the original model..



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