New Brake Kit
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Originally posted by teiva-boy
Being a vendor for these brake kits does make your opinion not very valid and a bit biased.
And claiming that one design is better over the other is not going to get you too far. People want real data.
I commend your enthusiasm towards this product, but you're being a salesperson or worse you've been suckerd into a deal that if you can drum up a few sales you'll get something in return from these guys.
[/jumps in flame suit]
Being a vendor for these brake kits does make your opinion not very valid and a bit biased.
And claiming that one design is better over the other is not going to get you too far. People want real data.
I commend your enthusiasm towards this product, but you're being a salesperson or worse you've been suckerd into a deal that if you can drum up a few sales you'll get something in return from these guys.
[/jumps in flame suit]
Yes, I am a bit biased. I really do beleive in the kits. Call them at 805-987-7867 and ask them why they think that they make better brakes then everyone else. They can tell you better then I.
As for the last comment, I am actually a distributor for them. So I guess that "these guys" are me now.
As far as real data goes, how about 90% of the sprint race cars have the brake man brakes on them.
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Here is an interesting article.
http://www.chtopping.com/str95/
http://www.chtopping.com/str95/examp...xamples12.html
Note that Warren Gilliland "The Brake Man" is quoted as a Respected Source?
http://www.chtopping.com/str95/
http://www.chtopping.com/str95/examp...xamples12.html
Note that Warren Gilliland "The Brake Man" is quoted as a Respected Source?
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From: Mann Engineering, Santa Clara, CA
Car Info: 13BRZ, 11FXT, 08T25, 07STI, 02WRX
Faster ABS Response? I dunno if you know or not but I know that there are a lot of people who are putting in ABS Switches in their cars because the ABS already responds quite fast and kicks in when they do not want it to. I am not sure that there are those that do not want it to kick in even faster.
Well, then I guess companies like Ferrari, Porsche, and BMW all should be using brake man parts because their brake systems are inferior.
Well, then I guess companies like Ferrari, Porsche, and BMW all should be using brake man parts because their brake systems are inferior.
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When I saw the initial post, I thought I'd have to do a thorough de-bunking. But now I see it's not necessary since the other posters have done a pretty good job already.
Buy these brakes if you have:
a) A street rod.
b) A sprint car.
c) an overwhelming desire to sacrifice braking performance for show car styling.
Otherwise, if you drive your Subaru hard on the street or the track, just get one of the un-forged, un-wavy, boring old cast iron brake kits from hopelessly out of touch dinosaurs like AP Racing, Brembo, or Stoptech. What you lose in bling, you'll more than make up for in feel and real world braking performance.
Whatever Warren Gilliland's technical qualifications may be, they are clearly overshadowed by his skills as a salesman.
Buy these brakes if you have:
a) A street rod.
b) A sprint car.
c) an overwhelming desire to sacrifice braking performance for show car styling.
Otherwise, if you drive your Subaru hard on the street or the track, just get one of the un-forged, un-wavy, boring old cast iron brake kits from hopelessly out of touch dinosaurs like AP Racing, Brembo, or Stoptech. What you lose in bling, you'll more than make up for in feel and real world braking performance.
Whatever Warren Gilliland's technical qualifications may be, they are clearly overshadowed by his skills as a salesman.
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From: Washington State, Car: 2000 Impreza Coupe RS-T T
Car Info: 2000 Impreza Coupe RS-T Tec3/Vishnu turbo Color: B
I see the only benefit that has been given that is a legitamate positive over Stoptech is that they fit on the stock rim, and there is a rear option and there is debate whether that is even a benefit for most.
Stoptechs are not heavy and are way lighter than the stock setups. Can't remember now but the Caliper and bracket is like 10lbs a side lighter. rotor is lighter too.
Not trying to put down your product here but you have to give some real reasons.
Faster ABS responce is not going to help. You need to trick the ASB system into thinking the car is not stoping as fast as it is or the ABS is going off anyway.
Anyway, you can get a Stoptech kit with the following for $1695
Front kit with slotted or drilled rotors
rear drilled rotors
4 wheel dot aproved ss brake line kit
motul brake fluid.
How again is yours a deal? I would always like a better product but you have not given any data or compairison.
Have you done a brake kit shoot out like the other kits have been in? Please share some of your extensive recent research that shows how these are amazing over the competition.
Then you try to corral the interested people that may not know to do the research and not trust sales persons so you can work on them away from this dieing thread.
Stoptechs are not heavy and are way lighter than the stock setups. Can't remember now but the Caliper and bracket is like 10lbs a side lighter. rotor is lighter too.
Not trying to put down your product here but you have to give some real reasons.
Faster ABS responce is not going to help. You need to trick the ASB system into thinking the car is not stoping as fast as it is or the ABS is going off anyway.
Anyway, you can get a Stoptech kit with the following for $1695
Front kit with slotted or drilled rotors
rear drilled rotors
4 wheel dot aproved ss brake line kit
motul brake fluid.
How again is yours a deal? I would always like a better product but you have not given any data or compairison.
Have you done a brake kit shoot out like the other kits have been in? Please share some of your extensive recent research that shows how these are amazing over the competition.
Then you try to corral the interested people that may not know to do the research and not trust sales persons so you can work on them away from this dieing thread.
Last edited by david2z4; Nov 24, 2002 at 06:27 PM.
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Originally posted by Jon Bogert
Otherwise, if you drive your Subaru hard on the street or the track, just get one of the un-forged, un-wavy, boring old cast iron brake kits from hopelessly out of touch dinosaurs like AP Racing, Brembo, or Stoptech. What you lose in bling, you'll more than make up for in feel and real world braking performance.
Otherwise, if you drive your Subaru hard on the street or the track, just get one of the un-forged, un-wavy, boring old cast iron brake kits from hopelessly out of touch dinosaurs like AP Racing, Brembo, or Stoptech. What you lose in bling, you'll more than make up for in feel and real world braking performance.
take a look at what the S2000 guys are saying about these brakes.
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthrea...light=Pinnacle
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Not much critical discussion there. The vendor says "they're great, blah, blah, blah" his customer says, "yeah what he said" and all the S2000 owners say, "wow, those rotors look cool!"
Let's start with problem #1. These brakes have less thermal capacity than stock, and much less than good aftermarket kits. Improved heat dissipation is nice, but it's no substitute for the security of a high-quality cast iron rotor. The Brakeman promotional materials dance around this fact, but it's something that an aggressive driver in a 3000+ lb car needs to keep in mind. The tech pages on the Brakeman site warn against using these rotors in high-stress situations, but you left that part out of your sales pitch.
Promote the wave rotor as a fashion accessory--like cross drilled rotors--and no one will have a problem with it. But when you start talking about improved braking performance with these things, your credibility goes south quickly.
Other wacky stuff:
- "Actually The Brake Man is the ONLY manufacturer that sells calipers that fully release the brake rotors"
This feature (if it were true) would be a problem that will need to be remedied by a residual pressure valve.
- "The Brake Man calipers are made form Forged Billet Aluminum with a steel center section that makes it one of the most rigid calipers that money can buy."
I call BS. Post some numbers to back this up or don't claim it. I'd like to see how "forged billet aluminum" compares to a Brembo monoblock. How does forging increase stiffness by weight anyhow? Forging metal makes it tougher, but not more rigid. And why do you need the steel in there, anyway?
- "Actually the reason that many of the companies you listed use less clamping force is becasue they use small pistons in the kit. The reason for this is to maintain the relative on/off feel that the stock brakes have. The calipers here have large pistons that make the brake pedal have a linear feel, much like a race car does. Braking is about physics not about opinion. Simply stated there is no reason to lower your braking torque. NONE."
Huh?!? Exactly the opposite of what you said is true. Have you ever driven a car with a well engineered brake system and high quality four piston calipers? "On/off feel" isn't the term I would use. As Concillian posted, brake torque is not a "more is better" proposition. Unless you need more pad pressure to compensate for other shortcomings of the design. For one thing, modulation is much better and more accurate when the brakes have less pad pressure. Why do you think top-end calipers have 6 or 8 pistons? To evenly distibute the clamping force over a large area.
Let's start with problem #1. These brakes have less thermal capacity than stock, and much less than good aftermarket kits. Improved heat dissipation is nice, but it's no substitute for the security of a high-quality cast iron rotor. The Brakeman promotional materials dance around this fact, but it's something that an aggressive driver in a 3000+ lb car needs to keep in mind. The tech pages on the Brakeman site warn against using these rotors in high-stress situations, but you left that part out of your sales pitch.
Promote the wave rotor as a fashion accessory--like cross drilled rotors--and no one will have a problem with it. But when you start talking about improved braking performance with these things, your credibility goes south quickly.
Other wacky stuff:
- "Actually The Brake Man is the ONLY manufacturer that sells calipers that fully release the brake rotors"
This feature (if it were true) would be a problem that will need to be remedied by a residual pressure valve.
- "The Brake Man calipers are made form Forged Billet Aluminum with a steel center section that makes it one of the most rigid calipers that money can buy."
I call BS. Post some numbers to back this up or don't claim it. I'd like to see how "forged billet aluminum" compares to a Brembo monoblock. How does forging increase stiffness by weight anyhow? Forging metal makes it tougher, but not more rigid. And why do you need the steel in there, anyway?
- "Actually the reason that many of the companies you listed use less clamping force is becasue they use small pistons in the kit. The reason for this is to maintain the relative on/off feel that the stock brakes have. The calipers here have large pistons that make the brake pedal have a linear feel, much like a race car does. Braking is about physics not about opinion. Simply stated there is no reason to lower your braking torque. NONE."
Huh?!? Exactly the opposite of what you said is true. Have you ever driven a car with a well engineered brake system and high quality four piston calipers? "On/off feel" isn't the term I would use. As Concillian posted, brake torque is not a "more is better" proposition. Unless you need more pad pressure to compensate for other shortcomings of the design. For one thing, modulation is much better and more accurate when the brakes have less pad pressure. Why do you think top-end calipers have 6 or 8 pistons? To evenly distibute the clamping force over a large area.
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Geez, my fingers are getting tired. Ok Lets see what I can cover... Not that you would beleive me anyway, but, here it goes.
Originally posted by Jon Bogert Let's start with problem #1. These brakes have less thermal capacity than stock, and much less than good aftermarket kits. Improved heat dissipation is nice, but it's no substitute for the security of a high-quality cast iron rotor.
Basically you need to match the rotor and the caliper to the car. After extensive testing The Brake Man has found that the best match to the car is the kit I am selling. The Brake Man sells 14" rotors with internal heat sinks and calipers with massive 2" pistons in them. Would these kits be good? No. Because it is too much brake for the car. The idea in choosing what components is to find the best braking force (read matched to the car) while keeping the smallest (read lightest) rotor.
Originally posted by Jon Bogert The tech pages on the Brakeman site warn against using these rotors in high-stress situations, but you left that part out of your sales pitch.
High-stress means they are not good for the front rotors in race situations.
Originally posted by Jon Bogert This feature (if it were true) would be a problem that will need to be remedied by a residual pressure valve.
Ding! Ding! Ding! You win the prize. The kit comes with residual valves.
Originally posted by Jon Bogert I call BS. Post some numbers to back this up or don't claim it.
Um if i did produce numbers would you believe it? Not likely.
Originally posted by Jon Bogert I'd like to see how "forged billet aluminum" compares to a Brembo monoblock. How does forging increase stiffness by weight anyhow? Forging metal makes it tougher, but not more rigid.
Um, you imply a disparity when there is none. Tougher=Stronger=More Rigid. The Forged Billet aluminum alloy has 50% greater structural integrity than even a standard billet caliper and over 100% more than a cast caliper.
Originally posted by Jon Bogert And why do you need the steel in there, anyway?
The steel is there to make the caliper more rigid.
Originally posted by Jon Bogert As Concillian posted, brake torque is not a "more is better" proposition. Unless you need more pad pressure to compensate for other shortcomings of the design. For one thing, modulation is much better and more accurate when the brakes have less pad pressure. Why do you think top-end calipers have 6 or 8 pistons? To evenly distribute the clamping force over a large area.
Yes there are kits that have the 6, 8 and 10 piston calipers. They are WAY too much brake for the car. It is all about matching components to the car, keeping the lightest and strongest components. As you know one of the goals of a race brake system it to have most linear application of force that the tires can accept, meanwhile allowing the driver to keep the car on the verge of locking the wheel, which allows the driver the most control of the car during braking. You have a certain amount of g-forces that the tire can maintain during braking. you want to be at 100% of traction. If you have a brake system that is not matched to the car and the type of tire being used then the tire can easily go over the traction limit. That is what happens to many drivers under hard braking.
Actually they tested and, because of demand have sold 13" kits, but they have always recommended using the 12.19" rotor because it matches the car and the caliper. The guys that got the 13" rotors are now reporting that they wish they had gotten the 12.19" and are now getting the smaller rotors
Originally posted by Jon Bogert Let's start with problem #1. These brakes have less thermal capacity than stock, and much less than good aftermarket kits. Improved heat dissipation is nice, but it's no substitute for the security of a high-quality cast iron rotor.
Basically you need to match the rotor and the caliper to the car. After extensive testing The Brake Man has found that the best match to the car is the kit I am selling. The Brake Man sells 14" rotors with internal heat sinks and calipers with massive 2" pistons in them. Would these kits be good? No. Because it is too much brake for the car. The idea in choosing what components is to find the best braking force (read matched to the car) while keeping the smallest (read lightest) rotor.
Originally posted by Jon Bogert The tech pages on the Brakeman site warn against using these rotors in high-stress situations, but you left that part out of your sales pitch.
High-stress means they are not good for the front rotors in race situations.
Originally posted by Jon Bogert This feature (if it were true) would be a problem that will need to be remedied by a residual pressure valve.
Ding! Ding! Ding! You win the prize. The kit comes with residual valves.
Originally posted by Jon Bogert I call BS. Post some numbers to back this up or don't claim it.
Um if i did produce numbers would you believe it? Not likely.
Originally posted by Jon Bogert I'd like to see how "forged billet aluminum" compares to a Brembo monoblock. How does forging increase stiffness by weight anyhow? Forging metal makes it tougher, but not more rigid.
Um, you imply a disparity when there is none. Tougher=Stronger=More Rigid. The Forged Billet aluminum alloy has 50% greater structural integrity than even a standard billet caliper and over 100% more than a cast caliper.
Originally posted by Jon Bogert And why do you need the steel in there, anyway?
The steel is there to make the caliper more rigid.
Originally posted by Jon Bogert As Concillian posted, brake torque is not a "more is better" proposition. Unless you need more pad pressure to compensate for other shortcomings of the design. For one thing, modulation is much better and more accurate when the brakes have less pad pressure. Why do you think top-end calipers have 6 or 8 pistons? To evenly distribute the clamping force over a large area.
Yes there are kits that have the 6, 8 and 10 piston calipers. They are WAY too much brake for the car. It is all about matching components to the car, keeping the lightest and strongest components. As you know one of the goals of a race brake system it to have most linear application of force that the tires can accept, meanwhile allowing the driver to keep the car on the verge of locking the wheel, which allows the driver the most control of the car during braking. You have a certain amount of g-forces that the tire can maintain during braking. you want to be at 100% of traction. If you have a brake system that is not matched to the car and the type of tire being used then the tire can easily go over the traction limit. That is what happens to many drivers under hard braking.
Actually they tested and, because of demand have sold 13" kits, but they have always recommended using the 12.19" rotor because it matches the car and the caliper. The guys that got the 13" rotors are now reporting that they wish they had gotten the 12.19" and are now getting the smaller rotors
Last edited by AaronC; Dec 2, 2002 at 08:22 AM.
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Why are guys always so mean???
I am by no means a tuner, brake pro, mechanic, or tech.... but I have these brakes. No they don't just look good. They work VERY well.
I have had other brake systems (I will not name names) and they all were pretty close in braking distance. For the first couple stops anyway.
After several hard braking/cornering.... I had brake fade with the last two systems. This new setup I have does not fade, and in my opinion a higher quality system. Both in build quality and function. For the same price points, I would not choose any other system than the Brakeman kit I am currently running.
I don't claim or try to act like I know everything because I don't.
I'm just telling you these things work as well as they look.
Just because you don't understand it, or have no knowledge of something that may be new to you... doesn't mean it doesn't work, or isn't functional.
Aaron you have done well with all the flaming. I don't come to this board to often because of responses like some of the above. People are very quick to judge and flame away. Don't take it to heart... this board is a bit more harsh compared to some of the forums that don't know everything.
I have had people ask how light my hood is compared to another hood (difference may be a few pounds) but they have two 12' woofers in their trunk and 19' rims - go figure.
This is not directed at any one person... but you know who you are. The ones who only post to flame. This board should be about sharing knowledge and learning from each other.... just my opinion.
Flame away... I been around here awhile. I'm used to it.
I am by no means a tuner, brake pro, mechanic, or tech.... but I have these brakes. No they don't just look good. They work VERY well.
I have had other brake systems (I will not name names) and they all were pretty close in braking distance. For the first couple stops anyway.
After several hard braking/cornering.... I had brake fade with the last two systems. This new setup I have does not fade, and in my opinion a higher quality system. Both in build quality and function. For the same price points, I would not choose any other system than the Brakeman kit I am currently running.
I don't claim or try to act like I know everything because I don't.
I'm just telling you these things work as well as they look.
Just because you don't understand it, or have no knowledge of something that may be new to you... doesn't mean it doesn't work, or isn't functional.
Aaron you have done well with all the flaming. I don't come to this board to often because of responses like some of the above. People are very quick to judge and flame away. Don't take it to heart... this board is a bit more harsh compared to some of the forums that don't know everything.
I have had people ask how light my hood is compared to another hood (difference may be a few pounds) but they have two 12' woofers in their trunk and 19' rims - go figure.
This is not directed at any one person... but you know who you are. The ones who only post to flame. This board should be about sharing knowledge and learning from each other.... just my opinion.
Flame away... I been around here awhile. I'm used to it.
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From: Washington State, Car: 2000 Impreza Coupe RS-T T
Car Info: 2000 Impreza Coupe RS-T Tec3/Vishnu turbo Color: B
We just wanted some reasons other than this kit cost twice what others do.
He has given some good explenations as of latter. It was just his poor opening saying how amazing these were from just reading about other brake settups than saying how they were a way better deal without any reasons.
My stoptechs can handle 10 hard stops form 60 to 5 mph one right after another without any fade until the 8th stop then you feel a little but it still stops just as hard right past the 10th stop.
I still donot see a deal about this kit or how it is any better. I read the whole brake man webpage also. Just dont see how they cost so much.
He has given some good explenations as of latter. It was just his poor opening saying how amazing these were from just reading about other brake settups than saying how they were a way better deal without any reasons.
My stoptechs can handle 10 hard stops form 60 to 5 mph one right after another without any fade until the 8th stop then you feel a little but it still stops just as hard right past the 10th stop.
I still donot see a deal about this kit or how it is any better. I read the whole brake man webpage also. Just dont see how they cost so much.
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Originally posted by david2z4
We just wanted some reasons other than this kit cost twice what others do.
He has given some good explenations as of latter. It was just his poor opening saying how amazing these were from just reading about other brake settups than saying how they were a way better deal without any reasons.
My stoptechs can handle 10 hard stops form 60 to 5 mph one right after another without any fade until the 8th stop then you feel a little but it still stops just as hard right past the 10th stop.
I still donot see a deal about this kit or how it is any better. I read the whole brake man webpage also. Just dont see how they cost so much.
We just wanted some reasons other than this kit cost twice what others do.
He has given some good explenations as of latter. It was just his poor opening saying how amazing these were from just reading about other brake settups than saying how they were a way better deal without any reasons.
My stoptechs can handle 10 hard stops form 60 to 5 mph one right after another without any fade until the 8th stop then you feel a little but it still stops just as hard right past the 10th stop.
I still donot see a deal about this kit or how it is any better. I read the whole brake man webpage also. Just dont see how they cost so much.
Last edited by AaronC; Dec 2, 2002 at 08:23 AM.
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Rayder, it's good that you found a brake kit that meets your needs. Perhaps this kit--like blue anodized cross-drilled rotors--will meet the needs and wants of many Subaru owners. There is nothing wrong with promoting neat new products to the sorts of people who have some room on the old Visa and want to dress up their ride.
Regarding my comments and questions, I'm not sure how you consider them flames. I almost never flame. In 2000+ posts on the (original) i-Club, you'll have a hard time finding a single post where I personally insulted someone, with the possible exception of the SCCA ProRally department.
Aaron posted some questionable and misleading information, though, and that's something that requires response. When resellers selling a new and unproven technical product spit out brochure-speak that might lead a newbie to make a bad decision, it's the duty of knowledgable people to come forward and debunk. That's what makes a technical forum like this worthwhile. On the old i-Club, there were quite a few engineers, master techs and hardcore racers who would give good advice to the weekly "what brakes should I get" questions.
It does raise the bar for vendors, of course. If you're selling something new, you can't just use a forum like this as a one way internet billboard. It's like Reebok trying to sell you a cool new sneaker, but you've got three orthopedists, a Phd in biomechanics and Michael Jordan there to give you advice.
If it weren't for the knowledge sharing you call "flames" we'd all be driving around running electric superchargers, with magnets on our fuel lines and Amsoil in our oil pan.
Regarding my comments and questions, I'm not sure how you consider them flames. I almost never flame. In 2000+ posts on the (original) i-Club, you'll have a hard time finding a single post where I personally insulted someone, with the possible exception of the SCCA ProRally department.
Aaron posted some questionable and misleading information, though, and that's something that requires response. When resellers selling a new and unproven technical product spit out brochure-speak that might lead a newbie to make a bad decision, it's the duty of knowledgable people to come forward and debunk. That's what makes a technical forum like this worthwhile. On the old i-Club, there were quite a few engineers, master techs and hardcore racers who would give good advice to the weekly "what brakes should I get" questions.
It does raise the bar for vendors, of course. If you're selling something new, you can't just use a forum like this as a one way internet billboard. It's like Reebok trying to sell you a cool new sneaker, but you've got three orthopedists, a Phd in biomechanics and Michael Jordan there to give you advice.
If it weren't for the knowledge sharing you call "flames" we'd all be driving around running electric superchargers, with magnets on our fuel lines and Amsoil in our oil pan.
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Originally posted by AaronC
Originally posted by Jon Bogert Let's start with problem #1. These brakes have less thermal capacity than stock,
Basically you need to match the rotor and the caliper to the car. After extensive testing The Brake Man has found that the best match to the car is the kit I am selling. The Brake Man sells 14" rotors with internal heat-sinks and calipers with massive 2" pistons in them. Would these kits be good? No. Because it is too much brake for the car. The idea in choosing what what components is to find the best braking force (read matched to the car) while keeping the smallest (read lightest) rotor.
Originally posted by Jon Bogert Let's start with problem #1. These brakes have less thermal capacity than stock,
Basically you need to match the rotor and the caliper to the car. After extensive testing The Brake Man has found that the best match to the car is the kit I am selling. The Brake Man sells 14" rotors with internal heat-sinks and calipers with massive 2" pistons in them. Would these kits be good? No. Because it is too much brake for the car. The idea in choosing what what components is to find the best braking force (read matched to the car) while keeping the smallest (read lightest) rotor.
Ive got several sets of cracked rotors, countless race pads worn to the backing plate and melted piston seals to answer your "too much brake for the car" comment.Look man, you are wrong. These brakes are bling, thats it. People here know much more about brakes from racing experience and engineering experience then you ever will. Even more so than your Bling Ma..I mean Brake Man. Your already weak argument was made even more unconvincing when you admitted that you sell them. Save the marketing drizzle for the s2k drivers and go spam somewhere else.
unlike Jon, I am very willing to flame