big brake kit
05-01-2003, 06:37 PM
#16
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Oakland, CA, Bay Area
Posts: 184
Car Info: Subaru WRX MY02
Hello again!
Newbie Subaru Enthusiast posts again.
Interesting facts being brought up again in the big brake discussion. Something previously mentioned that the Ion BBK was a two piece rotor....
What are the benefits of a two piece rotor as opposited to a
(Im assuming) one piece rotor? And why is the benefit
"more than a measly 10mm"?
Thanks!
- Ulysses
Someone previously mentioned this:
On top of that it's a two peice rotor. The benefits are much much more then the measily 10mm you mention.
Newbie Subaru Enthusiast posts again.
Interesting facts being brought up again in the big brake discussion. Something previously mentioned that the Ion BBK was a two piece rotor....
What are the benefits of a two piece rotor as opposited to a
(Im assuming) one piece rotor? And why is the benefit
"more than a measly 10mm"?
Thanks!
- Ulysses
Someone previously mentioned this:
On top of that it's a two peice rotor. The benefits are much much more then the measily 10mm you mention.
05-01-2003, 08:44 PM
#17
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Posts: n/a
useful - The rotors used for our BBK are actually 16mm x 1 mm larger then the stock ones.
2-piece rotors have several advantages:
(1) Allowing the suspension parts as well as wheel bearings etc to be much cooler.
(2) Much lighter weight then a 1-piece unit.
(3) Less unsprung weight translates to better handling (less work done by the suspension) as well as increase acceleration per given unit force.
2-piece rotors have several advantages:
(1) Allowing the suspension parts as well as wheel bearings etc to be much cooler.
(2) Much lighter weight then a 1-piece unit.
(3) Less unsprung weight translates to better handling (less work done by the suspension) as well as increase acceleration per given unit force.
05-02-2003, 12:10 PM
#18
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No arguing on the two piece rotor thing. (One reason I didn't want to go Rotora).
Maybe I don't know what dust seals look like, but my Stoptechs seemed to have them. Thats one of the distinctions people like to point out between Stoptechs and Wilwoods.
Kobayashi got to the point I was trying to make. Perhaps we need a distinction: Does BBK mean Bigger Brake Kit, or just plain BIG Brake Kit? LBBK (Little Big Brake Kit?)
Maybe I don't know what dust seals look like, but my Stoptechs seemed to have them. Thats one of the distinctions people like to point out between Stoptechs and Wilwoods.
Kobayashi got to the point I was trying to make. Perhaps we need a distinction: Does BBK mean Bigger Brake Kit, or just plain BIG Brake Kit? LBBK (Little Big Brake Kit?)
05-02-2003, 09:36 PM
#19
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Oakland, CA, Bay Area
Posts: 184
Car Info: Subaru WRX MY02
Personally, when I hear a BBK or Big Brake Kit, the first thing that comes to my mind is... Oohhh.. Upgrade!
So I guess, better than stock!
But thats just me.
- Ulysses
So I guess, better than stock!
But thats just me.
- Ulysses
05-12-2003, 09:43 AM
#20
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Posts: n/a
Originally posted by iON Performance
gqzboy Both the Stoptech and Wilwood calipers are not DOT complaint. Neither of them have dust seals or anti-rattle clips. Hence if you're going to be using them on the street, rebuilds will be more frequent then the OE caliper under the same conditions.
gqzboy Both the Stoptech and Wilwood calipers are not DOT complaint. Neither of them have dust seals or anti-rattle clips. Hence if you're going to be using them on the street, rebuilds will be more frequent then the OE caliper under the same conditions.
As for caliper construction, you are correct on the Wilwood kit, incorrect on the StopTech kit. StopTech brake kits all use dust boots on the caliper pistons and do not require the extra maintanance found on the Wilwood calipers. They also have abutment plates and a spring loaded bridge that prevent pads from rattling. A StopTech kit on a street car will require LESS maintenance than the stock brakes, assuming you are using street pads.
That Wilwood maintenance, by the way, consists of using brake cleaner and a toothbrush to clean road grime off the pistons before retracting them during a pad change. It's not a big deal and I've serviced a number of Wilwood kits here in NJ. One Impala SS has been going 60,000 miles between pad changes with the standard Wilwood tan pads and this car weighs 4200 pounds! I'm changing his rotors this weekend after 120,000 miles of service.
There are other reasons why I prefer StopTech kits to Wilwood. The biggest reason is that StopTech matches caliper piston size to the application so that brake balance is not thrown way off. Changing the bias between front and rear brakes will typically lengthen stopping distance. More front brake torque is not always better when combined with stock rear brakes. Many Wilwood kits are ridiculously front biased and, while improving thermal capacity for fade-free stops at the track, actually increase single-stop distance on the street. StopTech calipers are also much stiffer than Wilwood and even Brembo. This translates into firmer pedal feel.
05-12-2003, 11:13 AM
#21
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Originally posted by iON Performance
Both the Stoptech and Wilwood calipers are not DOT complaint. Neither of them have dust seals or anti-rattle clips. Hence if you're going to be using them on the street, rebuilds will be more frequent then the OE caliper under the same conditions.
Both the Stoptech and Wilwood calipers are not DOT complaint. Neither of them have dust seals or anti-rattle clips. Hence if you're going to be using them on the street, rebuilds will be more frequent then the OE caliper under the same conditions.
A StopTech caliper piston - but wait! Where's the dust seal?
There's the dust seal!
Dust seal installed on piston
Pistons and dust seals installed in StopTech caliper
05-12-2003, 06:56 PM
#23
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Location: Santa Clara CA USA
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Car Info: 96 Chevy Impala SS, 06 GMC 2500HD (former 02 WRX)
Dave : great to see you posting here in the Scooby world!
Rest of y'all : pay attention, this Dave guy KNOWS HIS STUFF
I have the TCE Wilwood brakes on my Impala SS. Dave had a hand in helping TCE develop this kit, BTW. About 40K miles on them now (fronts, about 4K or so on the matching Wilwood rears), no issues at all with the Wilwood calipers. But then, I do maintain them properly (like Dave mentions) and that makes all the difference!
Unfortunately, STX autocross class (which I am running the WRX in this year) doesn't allow brake kits
Rest of y'all : pay attention, this Dave guy KNOWS HIS STUFF
I have the TCE Wilwood brakes on my Impala SS. Dave had a hand in helping TCE develop this kit, BTW. About 40K miles on them now (fronts, about 4K or so on the matching Wilwood rears), no issues at all with the Wilwood calipers. But then, I do maintain them properly (like Dave mentions) and that makes all the difference!
Unfortunately, STX autocross class (which I am running the WRX in this year) doesn't allow brake kits
05-12-2003, 08:32 PM
#24
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Originally posted by Impala SS AutoX
Dave : great to see you posting here in the Scooby world!
Rest of y'all : pay attention, this Dave guy KNOWS HIS STUFF
I have the TCE Wilwood brakes on my Impala SS. Dave had a hand in helping TCE develop this kit, BTW. About 40K miles on them now (fronts, about 4K or so on the matching Wilwood rears), no issues at all with the Wilwood calipers. But then, I do maintain them properly (like Dave mentions) and that makes all the difference!
Dave : great to see you posting here in the Scooby world!
Rest of y'all : pay attention, this Dave guy KNOWS HIS STUFF
I have the TCE Wilwood brakes on my Impala SS. Dave had a hand in helping TCE develop this kit, BTW. About 40K miles on them now (fronts, about 4K or so on the matching Wilwood rears), no issues at all with the Wilwood calipers. But then, I do maintain them properly (like Dave mentions) and that makes all the difference!
Case in point about Wilwood kits. After the initial kit was put together, the brakes were too front biased, so I convinced Todd Cook (owner, TCE) to reduce the caliper piston size and go to differential bores. The resulting kit had terrific pedal feel and much better balance.
Did you ever get one of TCE's new rear brake kits for your BeaSSt?
05-15-2003, 03:44 PM
#26
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Car Info: 96 Chevy Impala SS, 06 GMC 2500HD (former 02 WRX)
Did you ever get one of TCE's new rear brake kits for your BeaSSt?
Basically, I was Todd's "Guinea Pig" for the Stage I rear kit (4 piston Dynalites, stock calipers). I still have the prototype on my car, although I do have his production brackets that I need to install.
05-15-2003, 04:33 PM
#27
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Originally posted by Impala SS AutoX
Yep, from my post : About 40K miles on them now (fronts, about 4K or so on the matching Wilwood rears), no issues at all with the Wilwood calipers.
Basically, I was Todd's "Guinea Pig" for the Stage I rear kit (4 piston Dynalites, stock calipers). I still have the prototype on my car, although I do have his production brackets that I need to install.
Yep, from my post : About 40K miles on them now (fronts, about 4K or so on the matching Wilwood rears), no issues at all with the Wilwood calipers.
Basically, I was Todd's "Guinea Pig" for the Stage I rear kit (4 piston Dynalites, stock calipers). I still have the prototype on my car, although I do have his production brackets that I need to install.
Glad to hear that is working out. Todd's a great guy. Hope he sells lots of these.
05-24-2003, 11:35 AM
#28
There are several reasons for using a two peice rotor design. Using an aluminum hat reduces unsprung and rotational weight. An aluminum had also reduces heat transfer to the hub.
Another big reason for a two-peice rotor design is the elimination of rotor distortion as it heats up. Since the rotor floats on the hat, it is free to expand and contract through heat cycles and stays nice and flat.
A one-piece rotor has the outer face of the rotor attached to the hat and it isn’t allowed to expand as much as the inner surface of the rotor. The result is a cone shaped rotor at higher temps. A lot of stress is generated in the rotor as it changes shape which will eventually lead to cracking.
The cone shape of the rotor is also part of the reason why the stock system and other aftermarket systems that use a one-piece rotor will have excessive wear at the top of the outer pad and at the bottom of the inner pad. Another reason for uneven pad wear is caliper flex. When added together, this effectively decreases the amount of usable material on the pad.
On the street, a one peice rotor is fine because it rarely, if ever, sees the kind of temperatures that cone the rotor. But a streetcar at the racetrack during a lapping day can generate that kind of heat, and that's where a two-peice rotor will give you added benefit, both in rotor and pad longevity.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
www.teamSMR.com
Another big reason for a two-peice rotor design is the elimination of rotor distortion as it heats up. Since the rotor floats on the hat, it is free to expand and contract through heat cycles and stays nice and flat.
A one-piece rotor has the outer face of the rotor attached to the hat and it isn’t allowed to expand as much as the inner surface of the rotor. The result is a cone shaped rotor at higher temps. A lot of stress is generated in the rotor as it changes shape which will eventually lead to cracking.
The cone shape of the rotor is also part of the reason why the stock system and other aftermarket systems that use a one-piece rotor will have excessive wear at the top of the outer pad and at the bottom of the inner pad. Another reason for uneven pad wear is caliper flex. When added together, this effectively decreases the amount of usable material on the pad.
On the street, a one peice rotor is fine because it rarely, if ever, sees the kind of temperatures that cone the rotor. But a streetcar at the racetrack during a lapping day can generate that kind of heat, and that's where a two-peice rotor will give you added benefit, both in rotor and pad longevity.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
www.teamSMR.com
Last edited by GarySheehan; 05-24-2003 at 11:39 AM.
05-30-2003, 08:56 AM
#30
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Kansai - Aluminum transfers heat away much quicker vs. cast iron (which would hold more heat the Al).
Depending on the rotor, the weight savings are different.
Ie: our 2-piece WRX OE sized 2pot replacement rotor only weighs in at 10lbs for shipping weight/ side. This is a directionally vented solid rotor. The x-drilled would be lighter as well as the slotted. (note: we have a 4pot replacement rotor that's a tad lighter)
Depending on the rotor, the weight savings are different.
Ie: our 2-piece WRX OE sized 2pot replacement rotor only weighs in at 10lbs for shipping weight/ side. This is a directionally vented solid rotor. The x-drilled would be lighter as well as the slotted. (note: we have a 4pot replacement rotor that's a tad lighter)