Opinions welcomed please provide some input
10-30-2003, 09:27 AM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Opinions welcomed please provide some input
Here is the system that is getting installed in my car on Nov 10th thru.... 15th maybe sooner
Alpine CDA 7998 Head
Alpine SPX-177A Front Doors
Alpine SPS-130 Rear Doors
Eclipse SW9122 Titainium Sub
Eclipse DA7122 Mono Amp for Sub
Eclipse PA5422 4 channel amp for Doors
Custom glass molded box in spare tire well (will have a raised floor)
Compustar 2WSS/AS w/ channel extender to have the window functionality as well
All work is being done at XP Xtreme Performance www.Xtremeperf.com in framingham Mass.
Will post pics when it's all done.
Alpine CDA 7998 Head
Alpine SPX-177A Front Doors
Alpine SPS-130 Rear Doors
Eclipse SW9122 Titainium Sub
Eclipse DA7122 Mono Amp for Sub
Eclipse PA5422 4 channel amp for Doors
Custom glass molded box in spare tire well (will have a raised floor)
Compustar 2WSS/AS w/ channel extender to have the window functionality as well
All work is being done at XP Xtreme Performance www.Xtremeperf.com in framingham Mass.
Will post pics when it's all done.
11-12-2003, 12:29 AM
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
Overall....nice choice of system components! Alpine and Elclipse products work very well together in my experience and both companies engineer products with high-end sound reproduction as their primary goal. Its also obvious that you want your system to look good and sound good. By sound meaning you want loud, dynamic, clean reproduction of your tunes with proper imaging, soundstage, and warmth.
As a long time car and home audio freak (currently home system consists of B&W Nautilus Speakers for all 7 sound points & sub, and Krell Home Theater Processor and Krell amps ---- current daily driver, old MBZ diesel sedan, system consists of Alpine head, changer, XM, alarm, with a/d/s/ 3 way components front doors, a/d/s 2 way comp rear deck, Image Dynamic subs, old Soundstream Reference Series amps) and a new STI owner, I'm about to dump more damn cash into a full-blown system within the next 3 months. I'm still finalizing system components and visual design and have spent a lot of time talking with the top installers in L.A. for their opinions/suggestions and finally narrowed down to a final pick on installer.
Now....as for head unit, sub, amps, I think you've made some good selections. My only suggestion would be to seriously consider and listen to other speaker models before you opt with the Alpines. Before I get into that, one very important thing you should do is, by all means, relocate the rear speakers from the stock door locations to the rear deck. The rear door locations, while fine for your passengers, prove to be weak in reproducing that rich, and detailed rear fill you should be looking for in a system of this caliber. Although a properly done system is all about creating a strong front soundstage with only minimal, ambience-type, rear fill (please dont have them tune the system so it sounds like your music is predominantly coming from behind you...this is totally wrong!), the rear door location is going to drop the height of your perceived soundstage lower than you'd want and you're going to be missing a lot of your music's frequency range because the rears are not firing directly towards you.
In our subies, the rear deck, with speakers properly mounted, will make the sound reflect off the rear windshield towards your driving position. It will let you hear all the sound frequencies without "muddying" certain tones (especially vocals and upper/lower midrange) and give you that surround sound type ambient fill to compliment the front soundstage. Notice..."compliment the front" ...not overpower it! Also, I recommend sticking with the sames model series for both front and back speakers and it will give you the truest, most consistent, level of sound reproduction and ensure you dont have a tone mismatch issue between front and rear. Sure, it costs more but why spend this much and cheat yourself in this last area? So, if you do stick with the Alpines, go with the SPX-137A in the back.
Okay....now to speaker brand/mfg options. Both Alpine and Eclipse are business clients of mine (I produce corporate awards for their respective companies) and I've had the opportunity to listen, at length, to each companies products each year as they're released. Also, my dealer made me purchase my STI with an Alpine head and Alpine S-Type Component speakers front/back already installed since I got the car from the first delivered back and at straight retail with no markup. After living with them since June (July?) and even adding a 4 channel amp (another Soundstream Ref I had lieing around.. fyi....this was the last amp series produced by Soundstream before it original owners first sold company and these amps totally rock! Very similar in sound to current upper line from Xtant) the Alpine S-Type speakers still just dont even come close to reproducing my tunes the way I want.
With the best recorded music source, the Alpines, to me, still sound harsh when pushed, lack dynamic range, are very sibilant in vocal reproduction, and extremely nasal in upper frequencies (probably due to cheaper crossovers and x-over settings that come with the speakers). Bottom-line, for me, they suck and really strain and tire out my ears with prolonged listening, especially at anything even close to mid-high volumes. Also, my dealer used the stock door location for the rear speakers and, as I said above, they exhibit all the problems I mentioned. Now I tried your installer's site to see what speaker lines they carry but the link you provided wont load up their site or maybe their server is down. With that in mind, here's what I suggest you consider for speakers: (SEE NEXT MESSAGE PART 2)
As a long time car and home audio freak (currently home system consists of B&W Nautilus Speakers for all 7 sound points & sub, and Krell Home Theater Processor and Krell amps ---- current daily driver, old MBZ diesel sedan, system consists of Alpine head, changer, XM, alarm, with a/d/s/ 3 way components front doors, a/d/s 2 way comp rear deck, Image Dynamic subs, old Soundstream Reference Series amps) and a new STI owner, I'm about to dump more damn cash into a full-blown system within the next 3 months. I'm still finalizing system components and visual design and have spent a lot of time talking with the top installers in L.A. for their opinions/suggestions and finally narrowed down to a final pick on installer.
Now....as for head unit, sub, amps, I think you've made some good selections. My only suggestion would be to seriously consider and listen to other speaker models before you opt with the Alpines. Before I get into that, one very important thing you should do is, by all means, relocate the rear speakers from the stock door locations to the rear deck. The rear door locations, while fine for your passengers, prove to be weak in reproducing that rich, and detailed rear fill you should be looking for in a system of this caliber. Although a properly done system is all about creating a strong front soundstage with only minimal, ambience-type, rear fill (please dont have them tune the system so it sounds like your music is predominantly coming from behind you...this is totally wrong!), the rear door location is going to drop the height of your perceived soundstage lower than you'd want and you're going to be missing a lot of your music's frequency range because the rears are not firing directly towards you.
In our subies, the rear deck, with speakers properly mounted, will make the sound reflect off the rear windshield towards your driving position. It will let you hear all the sound frequencies without "muddying" certain tones (especially vocals and upper/lower midrange) and give you that surround sound type ambient fill to compliment the front soundstage. Notice..."compliment the front" ...not overpower it! Also, I recommend sticking with the sames model series for both front and back speakers and it will give you the truest, most consistent, level of sound reproduction and ensure you dont have a tone mismatch issue between front and rear. Sure, it costs more but why spend this much and cheat yourself in this last area? So, if you do stick with the Alpines, go with the SPX-137A in the back.
Okay....now to speaker brand/mfg options. Both Alpine and Eclipse are business clients of mine (I produce corporate awards for their respective companies) and I've had the opportunity to listen, at length, to each companies products each year as they're released. Also, my dealer made me purchase my STI with an Alpine head and Alpine S-Type Component speakers front/back already installed since I got the car from the first delivered back and at straight retail with no markup. After living with them since June (July?) and even adding a 4 channel amp (another Soundstream Ref I had lieing around.. fyi....this was the last amp series produced by Soundstream before it original owners first sold company and these amps totally rock! Very similar in sound to current upper line from Xtant) the Alpine S-Type speakers still just dont even come close to reproducing my tunes the way I want.
With the best recorded music source, the Alpines, to me, still sound harsh when pushed, lack dynamic range, are very sibilant in vocal reproduction, and extremely nasal in upper frequencies (probably due to cheaper crossovers and x-over settings that come with the speakers). Bottom-line, for me, they suck and really strain and tire out my ears with prolonged listening, especially at anything even close to mid-high volumes. Also, my dealer used the stock door location for the rear speakers and, as I said above, they exhibit all the problems I mentioned. Now I tried your installer's site to see what speaker lines they carry but the link you provided wont load up their site or maybe their server is down. With that in mind, here's what I suggest you consider for speakers: (SEE NEXT MESSAGE PART 2)
11-12-2003, 12:30 AM
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
a/d/s - dynamic, smooth and warm mids, ability to play loud cleanly, and produce a nice, large soundstage...also very easy to listen to without ear fatigue and strong bass
dynaudio - all strong points of a/d/s with even greater detail in sound reproduction, even bigger soundstage and smoother/warmer mids
alpine's F1 Status - just as good as dynaudio with an almost freaky way of producing a huge soundstage - they image like very very well but cost like $4000 or some crazy **** like that
image dynamics - haven't heard their speaker line but, from judging by how good their subs sound in my daily driver system, they definitely are worth a listen
I hope all this helps you with your system build-up and helps you avoid some of the pitfalls I experienced in the past that wound up pissing me off and costing me more money than necessary. Oh....last thing.... obviously, if you listen to speakers from a car audio shop sound board, they will sound nothing like they will when installed in your car. BUT, when comparing different speakers on the sound board, be sure to compare identical speaker size from each mfg. ALSO, listen to differences in tonality between each speaker you audition on the board and pay close attention to vocal/ midrange reproduction in each and reproduction of high frequencies. Bring your own music you're very familiar with to test the speakers. REMEMBER, if their is something that strikes your ear as wrong or something that bugs you about a speakers sound on the board, just FORGET ABOUT THAT SPEAKER as this weakness will just become more pronounced once they're installed in your ride and the more time you spend living and listening to them.
If you have any questions, please feel free to send me a message on this board and I'll help you any way I can. Good Luck!
dynaudio - all strong points of a/d/s with even greater detail in sound reproduction, even bigger soundstage and smoother/warmer mids
alpine's F1 Status - just as good as dynaudio with an almost freaky way of producing a huge soundstage - they image like very very well but cost like $4000 or some crazy **** like that
image dynamics - haven't heard their speaker line but, from judging by how good their subs sound in my daily driver system, they definitely are worth a listen
I hope all this helps you with your system build-up and helps you avoid some of the pitfalls I experienced in the past that wound up pissing me off and costing me more money than necessary. Oh....last thing.... obviously, if you listen to speakers from a car audio shop sound board, they will sound nothing like they will when installed in your car. BUT, when comparing different speakers on the sound board, be sure to compare identical speaker size from each mfg. ALSO, listen to differences in tonality between each speaker you audition on the board and pay close attention to vocal/ midrange reproduction in each and reproduction of high frequencies. Bring your own music you're very familiar with to test the speakers. REMEMBER, if their is something that strikes your ear as wrong or something that bugs you about a speakers sound on the board, just FORGET ABOUT THAT SPEAKER as this weakness will just become more pronounced once they're installed in your ride and the more time you spend living and listening to them.
If you have any questions, please feel free to send me a message on this board and I'll help you any way I can. Good Luck!
11-12-2003, 04:11 AM
#6
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Posts: n/a
hey there deejay, thanks you very much for the input, very well spoken and clearly understandable. I totally understand your point about the rear fill location, however right now I am going to be using the rear deck lid "holes" as ports for the bass to roll into the cab until I can afford to custom a rear deck lid. as compensation for the rear door speaker locations they mentioned this to me as well and are going to angle the speakers up and forward. I am trying these speakers out the spx's in the front and sps in the rear if there is anything unacceptable they can be swapped w/out penalty. The only change to the system is the power amps, we are going to be using fosgate amps now. for the sub 1501bd and a 4ch 551x and the bridge is going to use the rfc32b there is a voltmeter integrated in it. any thoughts on these amps? again I appreciate the detail
11-12-2003, 10:05 PM
#7
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Posts: n/a
Hey grk! Happy to be of help! As for the Rockford amps over the Eclipse amps I would have to say thats a bad move. If this was ten years ago, I would have highly recommend the fosgate amps as they used to make kick *** (and very pricey) gear. Currently, I dont know who Fosgate is targeting as buyers and engineering their products for. They completely changed their design philosophy to use a few good key elements from their old amp technology to now produce mass-made and somewhat cheap amps. i.e. they wanted to go big time and crossover into the market they're in now..... meaning Best Buy.....meaning the regular car audio consumer that may recognize the name but doesnt have that golden ear to know their stuff sucks now.
If your installer suggested this switch then they're friggin nuts and dont know jack about electronics, amp design, and obviously dont know what audiophile music reproduction should sound like. Rockford Fosgate's current amps still have they're trademark or being very stable at very low ohms loads with massive loads and can play very very loud. However, what you sacrifice (that you will get with the Eclipse amps and, to a much greater degree McIntosh amps) is music detail, warmth, imaging/soundstaging, and that neutral sound reproduction across the freq spectrum (i.e. you dont want an amp that emphasizes only upper mid freq or extreme highs).
Lastly, just think.....I just checked Crutchfield and the 551x is $349 for 4 channels of power. I bet the Eclipse amp was twice, three, or more times that in cost? Fundamentally, mosfet amp design is pretty similar across the board so where is Rockford skimping? Obviously, they're using lower grade capacitors, diodes, power supply components, circuit boards etc than their competitors. Hey, check out the new Kia Diamante coming out in 2004 that looks a hell of a lot like a Mercedes E-Class sedan. If they look so much alike externally and internally then why is the Kia only $24k and the MBZ is $70k? Common sense my friend.
Hope this helps! Oh, don't forget proper cabling for both power and sound in your system and dont skimp. Have the system wired straight from a new high performance battery like the one from Optima with 2 gauge to distribution blocks, fuse modules, circuit breaker, etc. Your system is only as strong as ur weakest link and if your amps and electronics are starved for power then you're comprimising your sound quality.
If your installer suggested this switch then they're friggin nuts and dont know jack about electronics, amp design, and obviously dont know what audiophile music reproduction should sound like. Rockford Fosgate's current amps still have they're trademark or being very stable at very low ohms loads with massive loads and can play very very loud. However, what you sacrifice (that you will get with the Eclipse amps and, to a much greater degree McIntosh amps) is music detail, warmth, imaging/soundstaging, and that neutral sound reproduction across the freq spectrum (i.e. you dont want an amp that emphasizes only upper mid freq or extreme highs).
Lastly, just think.....I just checked Crutchfield and the 551x is $349 for 4 channels of power. I bet the Eclipse amp was twice, three, or more times that in cost? Fundamentally, mosfet amp design is pretty similar across the board so where is Rockford skimping? Obviously, they're using lower grade capacitors, diodes, power supply components, circuit boards etc than their competitors. Hey, check out the new Kia Diamante coming out in 2004 that looks a hell of a lot like a Mercedes E-Class sedan. If they look so much alike externally and internally then why is the Kia only $24k and the MBZ is $70k? Common sense my friend.
Hope this helps! Oh, don't forget proper cabling for both power and sound in your system and dont skimp. Have the system wired straight from a new high performance battery like the one from Optima with 2 gauge to distribution blocks, fuse modules, circuit breaker, etc. Your system is only as strong as ur weakest link and if your amps and electronics are starved for power then you're comprimising your sound quality.
11-17-2003, 12:38 AM
#11
Deejay
Its great to see some great audio advice hear. You touched on a lot of things that I've been trying to for the last few months. I definitely agree with your speaker opinions and the fact that many, many components sets out there tend to cause fatigue when listening at moderate to high volumes. The the rear door remarks are spot on. I've got a set of 5.5pros and they are pretty much non existent, partially because of a lack of power and partially because of location.
a/d/s - sounds better the louder they're played....but I must say the newer models don't sound like they did 5-6 yrs ago.
I really liked them....and I'm guessing those are the ones youre running.
dynaudio & image dynamics - right on about them
MBquart - a little too bright for me. My ears get tired of them.
Boston Acoustics - (My personal fav) Very true balanced sound. And very, very kind to your ears. I have Z6s and love them. I could go on and on about this H2 I just listened to yesterday which is now in the cosmetic stages of the install. We listened at very high volumes and you dont even realize it....this will definitely be magazine worthy (even demo car worthy) when its complete......a Boston/Xtant combo that is rock solid.
I also concur with old school Soundstream....
And I do like the new Xtants amps. I'm running 2 Xtants1.1s and a Xtant 6.1 and have been very happy with their performance. And what has Rockford been thinking??? I guess its all about boom and bucks now....thats too bad (but they do have some good deals now!!)
Well I wish I had more time but I don't......goodluck with the system grknss. Oh and dont forget about dampening in the doors...it makes a world of a difference in sound quality and efficiency! And a good Cap....like an Alumapro
And I may have to pick your brain sometime deejay
Its great to see some great audio advice hear. You touched on a lot of things that I've been trying to for the last few months. I definitely agree with your speaker opinions and the fact that many, many components sets out there tend to cause fatigue when listening at moderate to high volumes. The the rear door remarks are spot on. I've got a set of 5.5pros and they are pretty much non existent, partially because of a lack of power and partially because of location.
a/d/s - sounds better the louder they're played....but I must say the newer models don't sound like they did 5-6 yrs ago.
I really liked them....and I'm guessing those are the ones youre running.dynaudio & image dynamics - right on about them
MBquart - a little too bright for me. My ears get tired of them.
Boston Acoustics - (My personal fav) Very true balanced sound. And very, very kind to your ears. I have Z6s and love them. I could go on and on about this H2 I just listened to yesterday which is now in the cosmetic stages of the install. We listened at very high volumes and you dont even realize it....this will definitely be magazine worthy (even demo car worthy) when its complete......a Boston/Xtant combo that is rock solid.
I also concur with old school Soundstream....
And I do like the new Xtants amps. I'm running 2 Xtants1.1s and a Xtant 6.1 and have been very happy with their performance. And what has Rockford been thinking??? I guess its all about boom and bucks now....thats too bad (but they do have some good deals now!!)
Well I wish I had more time but I don't......goodluck with the system grknss. Oh and dont forget about dampening in the doors...it makes a world of a difference in sound quality and efficiency! And a good Cap....like an Alumapro
And I may have to pick your brain sometime deejay
11-17-2003, 03:40 AM
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
I agree there have been some excellent insights and suggestions in this thread thanks to all of you, DeeJay again thanks for the details. As for the rockford amps, I have been doing some research and the punch series you find in circuit city and best buy are of far less quality but the power series fosgate has been running for a long time seems to have quite a bit to offer and the price is decent too.
At any rate, if I am not happy with the amps or speakers I can always replace upgrade them, thae hard part has been done (wiring) so I will post some pics when it's all said and done, if you guys would like take a look at the install, the STi is all apart and ready check out page 3.
http://www.cardomain.com/id/grknss
At any rate, if I am not happy with the amps or speakers I can always replace upgrade them, thae hard part has been done (wiring) so I will post some pics when it's all said and done, if you guys would like take a look at the install, the STi is all apart and ready check out page 3.
http://www.cardomain.com/id/grknss
11-17-2003, 07:39 PM
#13
Looking good.....but 1500 for you sub and "only" 75x4 for your components??? I guess we're looking for a lot of boom I'd like to see some shots of the door work when you're done so I can compare with mine.....are they dampening the doors? I'd also like to see shots of the sub enclosure since I might consider a sub floor in the future.
The Power series is better than the Punch but nothing like it used to be. You'll get great output from them but they won't sound as good as amps from xtant or eclipse like deejay mentioned. You'll probably be ok with a RF powering your sub but SQ wise you would do much better if you went with an audiophile type of amp for your components.
I'd like to see some shots of the door work when you're done so I can compare with mine.....are they dampening the doors? I'd also like to see shots of the sub enclosure since I might consider a sub floor in the future.The Power series is better than the Punch but nothing like it used to be. You'll get great output from them but they won't sound as good as amps from xtant or eclipse like deejay mentioned. You'll probably be ok with a RF powering your sub but SQ wise you would do much better if you went with an audiophile type of amp for your components.
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