Why Subaru is jaded(and retarded) - my rant
01-06-2010, 02:52 PM
#16
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Sure its sad seeing Subaru lose its rallying roots, but guess what. Subaru sales have improved even with our old EJxx engines. As stated, if it ain't broke, why fix it?
Mitsubishi has been using the 4G63 since 1997. It was such a godly engine and had they had no reason to change it. The EJ series motors is great in its respect as well, and Subaru has no reason to fix it. If the 4G63 was such a godly engine, why make a new one? Because Mitsubishi's other cars suck ****, and they know that the Evolution is the only car that keeps them somewhat relevant in the automotive world. Of course they're going to rebuild it from bottom up.
Are Subaru sales hurting? No way, they've been improving, ESPECIALLY with the updates to the Legacies, Outbacks, and Foresters.
Its safe to assume that the experts at Subaru know not to wait until the brink of death that they improve the WRX models. In fact, I believe they're already in the process of making a new engine. Each year, Subaru can only improve the WRX models, all while leaving the STI's untouched. If Subaru keeps upping the HP to the WRX, it'll soon eclipse the STI! haha
I'm sure Subaru has something up their sleeves and will unveil the most bad *** STI in the upcoming years.
Mitsubishi has been using the 4G63 since 1997. It was such a godly engine and had they had no reason to change it. The EJ series motors is great in its respect as well, and Subaru has no reason to fix it. If the 4G63 was such a godly engine, why make a new one? Because Mitsubishi's other cars suck ****, and they know that the Evolution is the only car that keeps them somewhat relevant in the automotive world. Of course they're going to rebuild it from bottom up.
Are Subaru sales hurting? No way, they've been improving, ESPECIALLY with the updates to the Legacies, Outbacks, and Foresters.
Its safe to assume that the experts at Subaru know not to wait until the brink of death that they improve the WRX models. In fact, I believe they're already in the process of making a new engine. Each year, Subaru can only improve the WRX models, all while leaving the STI's untouched. If Subaru keeps upping the HP to the WRX, it'll soon eclipse the STI! haha
I'm sure Subaru has something up their sleeves and will unveil the most bad *** STI in the upcoming years.
01-06-2010, 02:56 PM
#17
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They need to take an EZ30 and a 6speed manual, make it boostable, drop it in something with a stiff chassis and put X Subaru shell on it. Simple, quick, and cost effective way to bring the STi's back in line with their current pricing.
Problem is, when nobody has money everyone works on making things cheaper, resulting in stagnation. It's not just subarus problem, it's everyones.
Problem is, when nobody has money everyone works on making things cheaper, resulting in stagnation. It's not just subarus problem, it's everyones.
01-06-2010, 03:03 PM
#18
Subaru sits on years of increased profitability and growth and all of it is owed to TWO cars. The Impreza and the Forester. The enthusiasts of both cars(mod scene and the practical users ie winter drivers etc) LOVE their Subarus for their dependability, enough for us to proclaim our love for them(ha! Love commercials) and to tell our friends and family to get Subaru's(I'm looking at you Ryan).
I just want to stand on the rooftops and scream I love my Subaru, and I don't care who knows! Any my brother, who now owns a Subaru, Loves his Subaru as well! They are good cars, and the community is good as well! I don't see many other groups getting 10 people together to install drop springs on a friends SUBARU!
01-06-2010, 03:05 PM
#19
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A word on innovation since a couple of people are wishing for more.. Companies go for innovation when they have funds (take it from me since i work at an Aerospace Company). As soon as they are running out of money, they yank funds from their research projects and inject them into mass production and main products. There are projects that have their engineers on pins and needles because they start up one week and are stopped the next because of the trickle down funding. Either way, unless you have a main product that brings home the bacon like an Accord, camry, Taurus, etc etc, you can't do the exciting things such as motorsport or research..
01-06-2010, 03:15 PM
#20
I finished Business School recently and was lucky to have a class with a great teacher that demonstrated all his examples with car companies. Which he proves Toyota is 4-years ahead of all car companies in technology when they took on Deming back in the day.
As far as Subaru not changing things like other car companies...
A lot of the bad reliability with American cars in the past decades came from the fact they made so many changes every year with their cars and trucks. Instead of refining what had already worked (or not), they would make changes those parts. The parts that worked fine before got changed and now fail.
Toyota, Subaru, and a lot of other overseas car companies refine the failing parts instead of completely changing the whole design. This is an advantage, IMO. Just because the parts look the same doesnt mean they havent put any more R&D hours into making it better.
Pretty much, make something the works great even better, or make something completely new every year.
Plus, I would say Subaru made significant changes in 2008 and that is contributing to their new issues. Personally, I ve been hit with most to all of the issues.
And, I believe I heard that in 2009, Subaru was the ONLY profitable car company. Growth of 7%. I think.
As far as Subaru not changing things like other car companies...
A lot of the bad reliability with American cars in the past decades came from the fact they made so many changes every year with their cars and trucks. Instead of refining what had already worked (or not), they would make changes those parts. The parts that worked fine before got changed and now fail.
Toyota, Subaru, and a lot of other overseas car companies refine the failing parts instead of completely changing the whole design. This is an advantage, IMO. Just because the parts look the same doesnt mean they havent put any more R&D hours into making it better.
Pretty much, make something the works great even better, or make something completely new every year.
Plus, I would say Subaru made significant changes in 2008 and that is contributing to their new issues. Personally, I ve been hit with most to all of the issues.
And, I believe I heard that in 2009, Subaru was the ONLY profitable car company. Growth of 7%. I think.
Last edited by ScoobySon; 01-06-2010 at 03:25 PM.
01-06-2010, 03:56 PM
#22
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A word on innovation since a couple of people are wishing for more.. Companies go for innovation when they have funds (take it from me since i work at an Aerospace Company). As soon as they are running out of money, they yank funds from their research projects and inject them into mass production and main products. There are projects that have their engineers on pins and needles because they start up one week and are stopped the next because of the trickle down funding. Either way, unless you have a main product that brings home the bacon like an Accord, camry, Taurus, etc etc, you can't do the exciting things such as motorsport or research..
Car companies operate twofold. They have separate sections of development and production. Ford did okay for the market the past year yet they just dropped 2 new performance engines out(new 5.0L v8 and the DI 3.5L TT V6). Car companies are also one of the biggest innovators out there and they have to be, they are fighting for a whole bunch of money and one of the biggest decisions of your life.
Re: ScoobySon's post. Toyota's new CEO, Akio Toyoda, has said in a Fortune magazine interview that he wants new technologies, innovations in their cars and they have to step fast. He no longer wants Toyota to be a stiff-conservative car company that we all know it to be right now.
Re: Quality issues on American cars. There will be problems with many car manufacturers, especially if they innovate. If you want reliability, you should lose all those goodies in the car. Quite understandable. American cars are basically cheaper cars with inflated price tags because of unions and pensions. It technically can't compete with Toyota who has plants in Alabama/Kentucky and operates without an union. Detriot's 3 have an average compensation of $75 per person per hour whereas the Japanese manufacturers have a $46 per person per hour compensation. Your $25,000 American car isn't the same car as a $25,000 Japanese car parts/quality/development wise. Still, the gap is closing.
01-06-2010, 03:56 PM
#23
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Yes, I also work in the auto industry with MANY top auto manufacturers.
I believe subaru sales are higher than any other currently, albeit they are a small player in the auto game. I personally have soured a bit from subaru's lack of innovation, as many manufacturer's offerings now include an AWD or some sort of realtime AWD system.
Subaru sales of foresters and outbacks continue to help them in sales, financially. Don't forget their fleet sales to rental car companies, this also helps boost sales figures dramatically. Ford, Pontiac, Saturn, Chevrolet, and Toyota were the top rental fleet automobiles, but an increase in import reliability has led to Nissan and Subaru entering the fleet rental market.
This can only help subaru.
However, my opinion of subaru to bring back a FWD vehicle to boost sales may not be beneficial to them. Do they think that they can break through in the FWD market? I'd say no, unless pricing was that of a KIA, say around $12k or so.
Subaru does make large cosmetic changes, but it does'nt usually appeal to the current suby enthusiast.
Have they betrayed their racing heritage? Maybe. But as far as structurally goes, these things save lives. I would'nt argue if my wife got another one after this (she's on her 3rd suby now). And the racing community makes up a small % of subaru owners anyway.
Look at the following for Scion. When was the last time you seen an xB racing (on a closed course)? But they have parts galore, and not to mention you can get one from the factory with options totalling almost what you paid for the car.
In short, subaru is'nt doing that bad in terms of sales. I doubt they can rely on all their current owners as repeat customers though.
I believe subaru sales are higher than any other currently, albeit they are a small player in the auto game. I personally have soured a bit from subaru's lack of innovation, as many manufacturer's offerings now include an AWD or some sort of realtime AWD system.
Subaru sales of foresters and outbacks continue to help them in sales, financially. Don't forget their fleet sales to rental car companies, this also helps boost sales figures dramatically. Ford, Pontiac, Saturn, Chevrolet, and Toyota were the top rental fleet automobiles, but an increase in import reliability has led to Nissan and Subaru entering the fleet rental market.
This can only help subaru.
However, my opinion of subaru to bring back a FWD vehicle to boost sales may not be beneficial to them. Do they think that they can break through in the FWD market? I'd say no, unless pricing was that of a KIA, say around $12k or so.
Subaru does make large cosmetic changes, but it does'nt usually appeal to the current suby enthusiast.
Have they betrayed their racing heritage? Maybe. But as far as structurally goes, these things save lives. I would'nt argue if my wife got another one after this (she's on her 3rd suby now). And the racing community makes up a small % of subaru owners anyway.
Look at the following for Scion. When was the last time you seen an xB racing (on a closed course)? But they have parts galore, and not to mention you can get one from the factory with options totalling almost what you paid for the car.
In short, subaru is'nt doing that bad in terms of sales. I doubt they can rely on all their current owners as repeat customers though.
01-06-2010, 04:12 PM
#25
Even with all the problems I've had, I can't see myself buying anything else. The performance per $ was just to good.
HP + TQ + number of drive wheels / price = Subie wins.
Last year, at the time I was looking at a RalliArt, GTI, SI, WRX, and other crap. Subie FTW!
HP + TQ + number of drive wheels / price = Subie wins.
Last year, at the time I was looking at a RalliArt, GTI, SI, WRX, and other crap. Subie FTW!
Last edited by ScoobySon; 01-06-2010 at 04:14 PM.
01-06-2010, 04:37 PM
#26
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5.0l v8s are hardly new technology. Mustang GTs had them for a while now.. if not eons. The DI TTV6 is a newer technology, but i would hardly call it groundbreaking. I think its taking components that exist now and rearranging them into a great, new, more efficient package. Really, the only thing left to do in IC engines are to improve the efficiency. Heck, (moving to the chassis world now) mazda, ford, and volvo shared the same chasses between their focus, mazda3 and the volvo.. forgot the make.. but anyways, the bottom line is that car companies are hardly innovative. they make one technology base, then share or improve upon technology that has been there before.
GM's quality was still "lacking" even though they had no innovative ideas for the most of their ride through most of the 2000s. I've had a friend who worked as an intern at GM as an engineer. They had many great ideas out on the drawing board (hybrids, electric vehicles, etc) , but middle management seemingly hell bent on competing with the smaller cars wanted cheap and small so those ideas got canned. As one example of their cheap methods, the small "bump" that you feel on the Y2k Camaro and Camaro SS passenger side floor were the result of exhaust piping that was routed originally in that area, but redirected later.. They didn't have money to "fix" the bump so they kept it there through production.
808subaru, subaru sold their line in america as awd and their specialties rest in its AWD system.. but in japan, they do/did sell FWD cars at the bottom of their lineup.
GM's quality was still "lacking" even though they had no innovative ideas for the most of their ride through most of the 2000s. I've had a friend who worked as an intern at GM as an engineer. They had many great ideas out on the drawing board (hybrids, electric vehicles, etc) , but middle management seemingly hell bent on competing with the smaller cars wanted cheap and small so those ideas got canned. As one example of their cheap methods, the small "bump" that you feel on the Y2k Camaro and Camaro SS passenger side floor were the result of exhaust piping that was routed originally in that area, but redirected later.. They didn't have money to "fix" the bump so they kept it there through production.
808subaru, subaru sold their line in america as awd and their specialties rest in its AWD system.. but in japan, they do/did sell FWD cars at the bottom of their lineup.
01-06-2010, 04:45 PM
#27
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I think Subaru views us just like the fans of all the crappy sports teams...we keep coming back for more every year no matter if they make the product what we want or not. Ha ha ha!
I for one will probably still buy Subaru at least for the next two purchases because now I am slowly moving more towards their mainstream.
Gonna get the new Forester for the wifey and will likely get the new LGT if I can afford it.
I for one will probably still buy Subaru at least for the next two purchases because now I am slowly moving more towards their mainstream.
Gonna get the new Forester for the wifey and will likely get the new LGT if I can afford it.
01-06-2010, 04:56 PM
#29
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5.0l v8s are hardly new technology. Mustang GTs had them for a while now.. if not eons. The DI TTV6 is a newer technology, but i would hardly call it groundbreaking. I think its taking components that exist now and rearranging them into a great, new, more efficient package. Really, the only thing left to do in IC engines are to improve the efficiency. Heck, (moving to the chassis world now) mazda, ford, and volvo shared the same chasses between their focus, mazda3 and the volvo.. forgot the make.. but anyways, the bottom line is that car companies are hardly innovative. they make one technology base, then share or improve upon technology that has been there before.
GM's quality was still "lacking" even though they had no innovative ideas for the most of their ride through most of the 2000s. I've had a friend who worked as an intern at GM as an engineer. They had many great ideas out on the drawing board (hybrids, electric vehicles, etc) , but middle management seemingly hell bent on competing with the smaller cars wanted cheap and small so those ideas got canned. As one example of their cheap methods, the small "bump" that you feel on the Y2k Camaro and Camaro SS passenger side floor were the result of exhaust piping that was routed originally in that area, but redirected later.. They didn't have money to "fix" the bump so they kept it there through production.
808subaru, subaru sold their line in america as awd and their specialties rest in its AWD system.. but in japan, they do/did sell FWD cars at the bottom of their lineup.
GM's quality was still "lacking" even though they had no innovative ideas for the most of their ride through most of the 2000s. I've had a friend who worked as an intern at GM as an engineer. They had many great ideas out on the drawing board (hybrids, electric vehicles, etc) , but middle management seemingly hell bent on competing with the smaller cars wanted cheap and small so those ideas got canned. As one example of their cheap methods, the small "bump" that you feel on the Y2k Camaro and Camaro SS passenger side floor were the result of exhaust piping that was routed originally in that area, but redirected later.. They didn't have money to "fix" the bump so they kept it there through production.
808subaru, subaru sold their line in america as awd and their specialties rest in its AWD system.. but in japan, they do/did sell FWD cars at the bottom of their lineup.
If you want to discuss about how the new Taurus SHO engine isn't new, be my guest because...guess what? The first cars that the Ecoboost V6 engines came out with was......wait for it............
2009 Taurus SHO, 2009 Lincoln MKT/MKS, 2009 Ford Flex. I guess you're really a time traveller.
01-06-2010, 05:01 PM
#30
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I think Subaru views us just like the fans of all the crappy sports teams...we keep coming back for more every year no matter if they make the product what we want or not. Ha ha ha!
I for one will probably still buy Subaru at least for the next two purchases because now I am slowly moving more towards their mainstream.
Gonna get the new Forester for the wifey and will likely get the new LGT if I can afford it.
I for one will probably still buy Subaru at least for the next two purchases because now I am slowly moving more towards their mainstream.
Gonna get the new Forester for the wifey and will likely get the new LGT if I can afford it.
I for one, bit that apple and I quite liked it. I'm already down to 2 choices for my next car in a year and a half. E63(family) or SL63(no family). Talk about customer retention. I guess they are #1 in 2009 for a reason.
Forget the LGT, you can buy my car. It has some really cool goodies.