S.F. Tomorrow
01-20-2003, 01:09 AM
#61
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Location: Austin, TX
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I want you to ask yourself why they are doing this? Who's land did the Isrealy take to make their own country? Its a very complicated situation, but I don't think you can say Palastinians are evil for protecting their lands with the only means they have. You say the good people of Isreal as if they have done no wrong. Just because they are our allies doesn't mean that they are right. For example are you telling Bin Ladin is right, since he was our ally and we taught him? Or can you say that Saddam is in the right since WE gave him weapons to kill the Kurds? Of course not. The "good" people of Isreal are very rich. And have alot of political pull her in America. I think that has more to do with the reasons why we are their allies than the fact that they are in the "right".
You state that i implied that what the Palastinians where doing is right. I don't think its right, but I can't blame them for defending there homeland with the only means they have. What do you expect them to do? Heres a question for you. If a power greater than the US started taking it over slowly but surely. Its weapons are vastly supperior and funded by a even stronger nation. All you have left is your life and bombs. What would you do? The act of sucide bombing is not a act of a person that has options. Its a act of desperation.
Don't forget that when those sucide bombers killed some people on the bus, what did Isreal do? You guessed it destroyed tons of homes. "Searched" threw their houses. Took innocent people and "interegated" them and also plowed down their homes. They also killed more people than that single sucide bomber did. So you said that the "homicide" bombings must stop. Well I agree they should but who are the homicide bombers? You do know that Isreal bombed the **** out of the Palastinian leader when he was in his house (not sure where he was to late and to tired to look it up.) and the surrounding area.
About my schooling in this area. Acutually you are way wrong for my history and politcal science classes I had hard core Republicans as my teachers. How do I know this? Well we argued a lot in school about our different beliefs. I will admit that part of the way I look at things is because of my family but I also take the time and analyze things. Pluss I like to sit down and talk about things like this. If you convince me that I am wrong all the better but so far you have not.
You state that i implied that what the Palastinians where doing is right. I don't think its right, but I can't blame them for defending there homeland with the only means they have. What do you expect them to do? Heres a question for you. If a power greater than the US started taking it over slowly but surely. Its weapons are vastly supperior and funded by a even stronger nation. All you have left is your life and bombs. What would you do? The act of sucide bombing is not a act of a person that has options. Its a act of desperation.
Don't forget that when those sucide bombers killed some people on the bus, what did Isreal do? You guessed it destroyed tons of homes. "Searched" threw their houses. Took innocent people and "interegated" them and also plowed down their homes. They also killed more people than that single sucide bomber did. So you said that the "homicide" bombings must stop. Well I agree they should but who are the homicide bombers? You do know that Isreal bombed the **** out of the Palastinian leader when he was in his house (not sure where he was to late and to tired to look it up.) and the surrounding area.
About my schooling in this area. Acutually you are way wrong for my history and politcal science classes I had hard core Republicans as my teachers. How do I know this? Well we argued a lot in school about our different beliefs. I will admit that part of the way I look at things is because of my family but I also take the time and analyze things. Pluss I like to sit down and talk about things like this. If you convince me that I am wrong all the better but so far you have not.
01-20-2003, 05:50 PM
#66
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Posts: n/a
It's great to see that so many people can talk about something so touchy without really fighting too much (yet). It renews some faith that I had lost living in the Bay Area!!
I'm not really up on world politics, or politics in general, but would be interested in hearing what some of you folks have to say about certain things.
Let me preface my comments by saying that I really don't care for war, but I would do anything to preserve the freedom of my country- even though I disagree with many of our foreign policies.
BADWRX- Hey chief, you seem like a really cool guy, and extremely passionate about life, and what you do- but take a step back and look at the situation from an unbiased standpoint. Doesn't Bush seem just a little politically motivated? Thats really what it seems most of the people here are saying.
Saddam is a bad guy, no doubt, but is he really an immediate threat? Placing a timeline (implied or not), and making stupid comments about time running out sure makes Bush look like he is in a hurry. Why?
Now I can understand that there could be some intelligence that is not acceptable for public knowledge, but if there was, don't you think that the U.N. would back us a little more?
Oh, and I agree that the U.N. is not the cure-all for anything.
It just seems that acting without some sort of international backing would really be "shooting ourselves in the foot" even more. Enough people hate us for what we do with the U.N. we don't need more hating us for ignoring the U.N.
I guess this post might look like I am picking on you BADWRX- I don't mean it like that, I just kinda started ranting while typing.
I also want to say that anyone who spits on, or is an *** to a soldier for serving their country should have their melon thumped, and if you want some help, I am willing and able...
I'm not really up on world politics, or politics in general, but would be interested in hearing what some of you folks have to say about certain things.
Let me preface my comments by saying that I really don't care for war, but I would do anything to preserve the freedom of my country- even though I disagree with many of our foreign policies.
BADWRX- Hey chief, you seem like a really cool guy, and extremely passionate about life, and what you do- but take a step back and look at the situation from an unbiased standpoint. Doesn't Bush seem just a little politically motivated? Thats really what it seems most of the people here are saying.
Saddam is a bad guy, no doubt, but is he really an immediate threat? Placing a timeline (implied or not), and making stupid comments about time running out sure makes Bush look like he is in a hurry. Why?
Now I can understand that there could be some intelligence that is not acceptable for public knowledge, but if there was, don't you think that the U.N. would back us a little more?
Oh, and I agree that the U.N. is not the cure-all for anything.
It just seems that acting without some sort of international backing would really be "shooting ourselves in the foot" even more. Enough people hate us for what we do with the U.N. we don't need more hating us for ignoring the U.N.
I guess this post might look like I am picking on you BADWRX- I don't mean it like that, I just kinda started ranting while typing.
I also want to say that anyone who spits on, or is an *** to a soldier for serving their country should have their melon thumped, and if you want some help, I am willing and able...
01-21-2003, 09:42 PM
#68
Dork
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 144
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Hello,
I wonder if this should be a seperate thread? I see some talk here about Israel. Someone said the situation is complicated. It is. In fact, it's the most complicated situation in modern history. Why? Because it has been going on longer than any other conflict in history. In fact, the conflict pre-dates Arabs and the Islamic/Muslim religion... by thousands of years.
Alright, I'll make it a seperate thread...
Joel
I wonder if this should be a seperate thread? I see some talk here about Israel. Someone said the situation is complicated. It is. In fact, it's the most complicated situation in modern history. Why? Because it has been going on longer than any other conflict in history. In fact, the conflict pre-dates Arabs and the Islamic/Muslim religion... by thousands of years.
Alright, I'll make it a seperate thread...
Joel
01-22-2003, 10:43 AM
#69
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This is a bit long... but if you enjoy history and enjoy introspecting your own ideas about history and conflict, reading the whole thing might be worthwhile....
Hmmm in histories that I've read, it seems there wasn't much tension between Arabs/Muslims and Jews until Europe got involved. Almost every time Jews got persecuted or pushed out somewhere, where'd they go? With the uncharactistic exception of Holland and the ever-tolerant Dutch, they ended up with the Muslims. In southern Spain it was the Moors who took them in and shared mutual admiration in faith, mathematics, sciences, literature, etc. And then again after the Spanish Inquisition one quarter of a million Jews went to Turkey (which was far more muslim then than it is now).
The European Jewish immigration to Israel which began in the 1800s was in addition to Jews who lived there peacefully already. Having acquired land through peaceful means with often very happy absentee Arab landlords things were fine.... until minor complaints from both sides were blown out of proportion by the British, and then perpetuated by more of the land and power hungry European Jews. Please note this was not the norm. Most of the Jews and Arabs there had no problem with eachother, until things escallated and immigrations tensions escallated and was compounded by stupid decisions by the British which just made matters worse. Problems were not so much socio-religious tension as they were socio-economic.
Today's problem is that Israel won't leave the West Bank and the hardliners make matters worse. In recent years I have all but lost a desire to personally support Israel. In the past they have made consessions (Sinai) for the sake of peace... but in the end it was land they conquered in the first place. In reality the WB should go back to Jordan (remember, it used to be called the Transjordan ?
) And infact, historically, what we call "Palestinians" are "Jordainians". But just as the Israelis spite the Palestianians, so does the Husseinite clan of Jordan and so does Egypt. No one wants to take them in. When Israel returned the Sinai, Egypt declined to take Gaza. Heck, Egypt could have received the Gaza and then liberated it! It would have been a HUGE step for the Palestianians. Why did Egypt and these displaced Transjordanians skip this prime opportunity?
The truth is, all the wars in the Middle East are not and never have been about land for the Palestianians. Historically the WB is part of Jordan and the rest of Israel is actually part of the kingdom of Syria. The Arab nations want their land back. There's no pan-Arab agenda to save or vindicate the Palestinians. If one of the great Middle Eastern wars had been lost by Israel, it would have been divided up between Lebennon, Syria, Jordan and possibly Egpypt. There still would be no "Palestine". The only acquiescense by the Arab nations to support Palestinians is that atleast these Europeans, Westerners who call themselves Jews (which is actually how I see it too, despite my own Jewish heritage) will no longer have control in the region.
So if you've read this and think I take one side or another? I really don't. I think the history is cloudy and lots of lies have been told. But we can discern a lot from behavior patterns that go back one or two hundred years by both sides and the Western influence.
Israel as a nation, once again, now exists. Its a reality. The question is then, Will Israel stand beside its own heritage and faith that has formed it and sustained it for thousands of years... to care for the oppressed and the orphan and the widow and the homless and bring justice? Or will it continue to confuse justice with demanding ones own rights and retribution? By the cultures own historical records it losts its heritage because it lost the core of its heart and reason for being. Will it happen again? Will Israel self-destruct because it refuses to remember who it is? Honestly, I would rather that than see more war and more oppression against the Palestinians.
jason
Hmmm in histories that I've read, it seems there wasn't much tension between Arabs/Muslims and Jews until Europe got involved. Almost every time Jews got persecuted or pushed out somewhere, where'd they go? With the uncharactistic exception of Holland and the ever-tolerant Dutch, they ended up with the Muslims. In southern Spain it was the Moors who took them in and shared mutual admiration in faith, mathematics, sciences, literature, etc. And then again after the Spanish Inquisition one quarter of a million Jews went to Turkey (which was far more muslim then than it is now).
The European Jewish immigration to Israel which began in the 1800s was in addition to Jews who lived there peacefully already. Having acquired land through peaceful means with often very happy absentee Arab landlords things were fine.... until minor complaints from both sides were blown out of proportion by the British, and then perpetuated by more of the land and power hungry European Jews. Please note this was not the norm. Most of the Jews and Arabs there had no problem with eachother, until things escallated and immigrations tensions escallated and was compounded by stupid decisions by the British which just made matters worse. Problems were not so much socio-religious tension as they were socio-economic.
Today's problem is that Israel won't leave the West Bank and the hardliners make matters worse. In recent years I have all but lost a desire to personally support Israel. In the past they have made consessions (Sinai) for the sake of peace... but in the end it was land they conquered in the first place. In reality the WB should go back to Jordan (remember, it used to be called the Transjordan ?
) And infact, historically, what we call "Palestinians" are "Jordainians". But just as the Israelis spite the Palestianians, so does the Husseinite clan of Jordan and so does Egypt. No one wants to take them in. When Israel returned the Sinai, Egypt declined to take Gaza. Heck, Egypt could have received the Gaza and then liberated it! It would have been a HUGE step for the Palestianians. Why did Egypt and these displaced Transjordanians skip this prime opportunity?The truth is, all the wars in the Middle East are not and never have been about land for the Palestianians. Historically the WB is part of Jordan and the rest of Israel is actually part of the kingdom of Syria. The Arab nations want their land back. There's no pan-Arab agenda to save or vindicate the Palestinians. If one of the great Middle Eastern wars had been lost by Israel, it would have been divided up between Lebennon, Syria, Jordan and possibly Egpypt. There still would be no "Palestine". The only acquiescense by the Arab nations to support Palestinians is that atleast these Europeans, Westerners who call themselves Jews (which is actually how I see it too, despite my own Jewish heritage) will no longer have control in the region.
So if you've read this and think I take one side or another? I really don't. I think the history is cloudy and lots of lies have been told. But we can discern a lot from behavior patterns that go back one or two hundred years by both sides and the Western influence.
Israel as a nation, once again, now exists. Its a reality. The question is then, Will Israel stand beside its own heritage and faith that has formed it and sustained it for thousands of years... to care for the oppressed and the orphan and the widow and the homless and bring justice? Or will it continue to confuse justice with demanding ones own rights and retribution? By the cultures own historical records it losts its heritage because it lost the core of its heart and reason for being. Will it happen again? Will Israel self-destruct because it refuses to remember who it is? Honestly, I would rather that than see more war and more oppression against the Palestinians.
jason
01-22-2003, 11:25 AM
#70
Dork
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 144
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Jason,
Excellent post, but ya should have put it in the other thread! Jews and Muslims have NEVER coexisted for extended periods of time, peacefully. Mohammad, the Islamic Prophet, in 600 A.D., asked the Jews to believe in him as the Prophet and to follow his religion. When they said no, Mohammad began the greatest Ethnic cleansing the world has ever known. Stories say that he eradicated the entire Jewish problem from all of Arabia. At the least, he slaughtered all the Jews in what he then renamed Medina, the second holiest Muslim site. Then Omar signed a pact with the Christians - Muslims would be allowed in Jerusalem only if they promised to clean Jerusalem of Jews.
The Koran has 23 specific references to Jews, and about 114 references to Jews or the Children of Israel. The vast majority of them are not kind, and in fact, several praise the power of Allah for having given the Muslims the ability to crush the Jews. Other such passeges teach of the lies and deceipt of the Jews against which the Muslims must always guard. The Muslim hatred of Jews is scripted in their bible, the Kor'an.
Imagine, viewing American history, if the bible itself gave authority for racisim and in fact demanded Christian superiority against some minority. Do you have any doubt that America would have turned into a different place than it is today? Well, the Kor'an has done just that.
BTW, Israel wasn't in the West Bank until '67. It wasn't until Israel's neighbors proved that they would continue to harass Israel, that Israel tried to stick a buffer zone between the countries - the West Bank. In the rest of the world, when you push your enemy out of his own country, you annex the area as your own. Israel's big mistake, it seems, was leaving the territories as "occupied" instead of just making them part of Israel.
Just my thoughts...
Joel
Excellent post, but ya should have put it in the other thread!
Jews and Muslims have NEVER coexisted for extended periods of time, peacefully. Mohammad, the Islamic Prophet, in 600 A.D., asked the Jews to believe in him as the Prophet and to follow his religion. When they said no, Mohammad began the greatest Ethnic cleansing the world has ever known. Stories say that he eradicated the entire Jewish problem from all of Arabia. At the least, he slaughtered all the Jews in what he then renamed Medina, the second holiest Muslim site. Then Omar signed a pact with the Christians - Muslims would be allowed in Jerusalem only if they promised to clean Jerusalem of Jews.The Koran has 23 specific references to Jews, and about 114 references to Jews or the Children of Israel. The vast majority of them are not kind, and in fact, several praise the power of Allah for having given the Muslims the ability to crush the Jews. Other such passeges teach of the lies and deceipt of the Jews against which the Muslims must always guard. The Muslim hatred of Jews is scripted in their bible, the Kor'an.
Imagine, viewing American history, if the bible itself gave authority for racisim and in fact demanded Christian superiority against some minority. Do you have any doubt that America would have turned into a different place than it is today? Well, the Kor'an has done just that.
BTW, Israel wasn't in the West Bank until '67. It wasn't until Israel's neighbors proved that they would continue to harass Israel, that Israel tried to stick a buffer zone between the countries - the West Bank. In the rest of the world, when you push your enemy out of his own country, you annex the area as your own. Israel's big mistake, it seems, was leaving the territories as "occupied" instead of just making them part of Israel.
Just my thoughts...
Joel
01-22-2003, 05:29 PM
#71
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Joel,
but america was built on such religous arrogance. "hey, these savages won't convert or give up their land... lets kill them, and take it"
Central, and South America... Africa. I mean, Christians have killed easily more than anyone other religion in the name of God, converting, and conqureing other lands.
I just can't believe that Muhammed said anything like that, or that the Koran would have such hate. I just can't... doens't makes sense to me
-Gagan
but america was built on such religous arrogance. "hey, these savages won't convert or give up their land... lets kill them, and take it"
Central, and South America... Africa. I mean, Christians have killed easily more than anyone other religion in the name of God, converting, and conqureing other lands.
I just can't believe that Muhammed said anything like that, or that the Koran would have such hate. I just can't... doens't makes sense to me
-Gagan
01-22-2003, 10:00 PM
#72
Dork
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Location: SF Bay Area
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