House Votes To End 25-Year-Old Oil Drilling Ban
CNG is another alternative that interests me. Distribution is already in place. A good percentage of people already have natural gas lines run to their houses...
I don't know anything about CNG production and refinement, though.
I don't know anything about CNG production and refinement, though.
-Gagan
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Think about how long it will take to actually get oil out of the ground, then think about how little that will be compared to the rest of the world's oil supply. Then think about how the oil companies will sell the oil on the world market (we don't get to keep it, we have to buy it).
So by saying I'm against electric cars is saying that we will just automatically come up with some new technology? ROLFMAO, no where close to what I was saying. I am against the statements of others that posted saying that we should continue to develop electric cars or produce more electric cars for all to drive right now. Nor did I say anything about a new propulsion technology. I stated simply that I'm against using electric cars when the electricity that is used to charge their batteries takes more fuel to create than a traditional internal combustion engine (right now it's more efficient to drive a hummer than an electric car fuel wise). Alternative renewable electric sources need to become much more widespread such that the electricity charging such a car is more efficient to create input fuel wise than that of an internal combustion engine. Of course once that happens our oil dependancy will be nowhere close to what it is now, enough of a difference that we could see gas prices drop back down around $1-$2 a gallon if worldwide demand stays relatively flat.
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The whole ethanol thing is driving the corn and soy prices WAY up so farmers are changing the foods they grow to sell to companies to make ethanol... these are the same corn farmers who are still get fed subsidies... greed anyone?
I hate the whole E85 crap, we need to use more solar in our homes/businesses and electric or hybrid cars to drastically cut the demand for gas down.
I hate the whole E85 crap, we need to use more solar in our homes/businesses and electric or hybrid cars to drastically cut the demand for gas down.
I think we all agree on the final objective, reducing dependence on oil, but have differences of opinion as to logistics of accomplishing it (welcome to the wonderful world of politics). I personally think there should be a balance of available options for the sake of competition and overall technological development, so there is not one product (aka monopoly) that is a dominant force behind all this bs...
So what if it takes a long time, it still means more new jobs now for exploring the idea, researching, building, drilling, inspections, shipping etc. The jobs it will create won't take a long time, and it will create new jobs as it develops. So what if it gets sold on the world market, the jobs it creates are important.
So by saying I'm against electric cars is saying that we will just automatically come up with some new technology? ROLFMAO, no where close to what I was saying. I am against the statements of others that posted saying that we should continue to develop electric cars or produce more electric cars for all to drive right now. Nor did I say anything about a new propulsion technology. I stated simply that I'm against using electric cars when the electricity that is used to charge their batteries takes more fuel to create than a traditional internal combustion engine (right now it's more efficient to drive a hummer than an electric car fuel wise). Alternative renewable electric sources need to become much more widespread such that the electricity charging such a car is more efficient to create input fuel wise than that of an internal combustion engine. Of course once that happens our oil dependancy will be nowhere close to what it is now, enough of a difference that we could see gas prices drop back down around $1-$2 a gallon if worldwide demand stays relatively flat.
So by saying I'm against electric cars is saying that we will just automatically come up with some new technology? ROLFMAO, no where close to what I was saying. I am against the statements of others that posted saying that we should continue to develop electric cars or produce more electric cars for all to drive right now. Nor did I say anything about a new propulsion technology. I stated simply that I'm against using electric cars when the electricity that is used to charge their batteries takes more fuel to create than a traditional internal combustion engine (right now it's more efficient to drive a hummer than an electric car fuel wise). Alternative renewable electric sources need to become much more widespread such that the electricity charging such a car is more efficient to create input fuel wise than that of an internal combustion engine. Of course once that happens our oil dependancy will be nowhere close to what it is now, enough of a difference that we could see gas prices drop back down around $1-$2 a gallon if worldwide demand stays relatively flat.
If even 25% of people were to switch to electric cars for their less than 30miles/day commute to work, that's still 25% less gas being used from the pump. It's the pump we are talking about here and the price of oil.
Also, electricity is CHEAP. Dirt cheap, so how is it inefficient again? Pennies in comparison to gasoline. Start now and we will quickly overshadow any initial costs.
We have to develop power with solar, wind, and nuclear. I'm for hydro but that's not always easy to do.
We have to stop making coal plants, that's for sure.
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To have the demand drop means you have to cut the use of gas back... So I don't see your argument about using fossil fuels.
If even 25% of people were to switch to electric cars for their less than 30miles/day commute to work, that's still 25% less gas being used from the pump. It's the pump we are talking about here and the price of oil.
Also, electricity is CHEAP. Dirt cheap, so how is it inefficient again? Pennies in comparison to gasoline. Start now and we will quickly overshadow any initial costs.
We have to develop power with solar, wind, and nuclear. I'm for hydro but that's not always easy to do.
We have to stop making coal plants, that's for sure.
If even 25% of people were to switch to electric cars for their less than 30miles/day commute to work, that's still 25% less gas being used from the pump. It's the pump we are talking about here and the price of oil.
Also, electricity is CHEAP. Dirt cheap, so how is it inefficient again? Pennies in comparison to gasoline. Start now and we will quickly overshadow any initial costs.
We have to develop power with solar, wind, and nuclear. I'm for hydro but that's not always easy to do.
We have to stop making coal plants, that's for sure.
Really? So making electricity production more efficient doesn't cut back oil demand huh? So those power plants that burn oil (yes they do exist) changing to a renewable source wouldn't cause a drop in oil demand would they?
Go ahead and buy your electric car, you and all the rest of you californians and you will all still wonder why gas prices stay the same even though there are less gas burning cars on the road. Electric prices will increase due to demand, and oil prices will still increase to accomodate the extra demand on electric power. Not all oil goes to the pump.
Electricity is inefficient simply because transforming energy to different sources and moving it over a great distance is not as efficient as burning gas on site and only converting it to mechanical power. True, electricity is the most efficient long distance way to transfer energy, but converting the gas locally is much more efficient than electricity. Just by burning the gas to create the mechanical energy required to turn the generator you're already around the same efficiency as an internal combustion engine (suprise suprise). Convert the mechanical engergy to electric and you just lost a lot of power there, add in the distance from the plant to the source you're charging and there's another loss due to impedance. Finally add in the conversion from electric back to mechanical and there is no doubt that you're way below the efficeny of an internal combustion engine on your shiny new electric car.
Oh and did I mention it takes a considerable amount of energy to power a car such that your electric bills are going to be quite shocking? These aren't go karts, but full on road cars with all the safety features and lots of batteries weighing as much or more than an internal combustion engine car. Imagine 25% of the people in california getting electric cars where electricity already is in relatively high demand and overpriced, electric costs will go up and you're charging a car now. I would imagine your monthly electric costs to be at least $200-$300 on top of what you pay already if you only have one electric car.
Really? So making electricity production more efficient doesn't cut back oil demand huh? So those power plants that burn oil (yes they do exist) changing to a renewable source wouldn't cause a drop in oil demand would they?
Go ahead and buy your electric car, you and all the rest of you californians and you will all still wonder why gas prices stay the same even though there are less gas burning cars on the road. Electric prices will increase due to demand, and oil prices will still increase to accomodate the extra demand on electric power. Not all oil goes to the pump.
Electricity is inefficient simply because transforming energy to different sources and moving it over a great distance is not as efficient as burning gas on site and only converting it to mechanical power. True, electricity is the most efficient long distance way to transfer energy, but converting the gas locally is much more efficient than electricity. Just by burning the gas to create the mechanical energy required to turn the generator you're already around the same efficiency as an internal combustion engine (suprise suprise). Convert the mechanical engergy to electric and you just lost a lot of power there, add in the distance from the plant to the source you're charging and there's another loss due to impedance. Finally add in the conversion from electric back to mechanical and there is no doubt that you're way below the efficeny of an internal combustion engine on your shiny new electric car.
Oh and did I mention it takes a considerable amount of energy to power a car such that your electric bills are going to be quite shocking? These aren't go karts, but full on road cars with all the safety features and lots of batteries weighing as much or more than an internal combustion engine car. Imagine 25% of the people in california getting electric cars where electricity already is in relatively high demand and overpriced, electric costs will go up and you're charging a car now. I would imagine your monthly electric costs to be at least $200-$300 on top of what you pay already if you only have one electric car.
Go ahead and buy your electric car, you and all the rest of you californians and you will all still wonder why gas prices stay the same even though there are less gas burning cars on the road. Electric prices will increase due to demand, and oil prices will still increase to accomodate the extra demand on electric power. Not all oil goes to the pump.
Electricity is inefficient simply because transforming energy to different sources and moving it over a great distance is not as efficient as burning gas on site and only converting it to mechanical power. True, electricity is the most efficient long distance way to transfer energy, but converting the gas locally is much more efficient than electricity. Just by burning the gas to create the mechanical energy required to turn the generator you're already around the same efficiency as an internal combustion engine (suprise suprise). Convert the mechanical engergy to electric and you just lost a lot of power there, add in the distance from the plant to the source you're charging and there's another loss due to impedance. Finally add in the conversion from electric back to mechanical and there is no doubt that you're way below the efficeny of an internal combustion engine on your shiny new electric car.
Oh and did I mention it takes a considerable amount of energy to power a car such that your electric bills are going to be quite shocking? These aren't go karts, but full on road cars with all the safety features and lots of batteries weighing as much or more than an internal combustion engine car. Imagine 25% of the people in california getting electric cars where electricity already is in relatively high demand and overpriced, electric costs will go up and you're charging a car now. I would imagine your monthly electric costs to be at least $200-$300 on top of what you pay already if you only have one electric car.
** Edit:
This shows that power from oil is only 1.6%!!
So please, humor me with some facts of your own good sir...
Look at the above... care to tell us where oil for power lies, cause burning crude oil is probably not it.
*** edit: The other chart shows it's pretty much insignificant...
2) At worst an electric car uses about .37 Kwh per mile at currently we pay about 14 cents per Kwh. So .37*14 = 5.2 CENTS per mile!!!
An electric car's efficiency is affected by its charging and discharging efficiencies. A typical charging cycle is about 85% efficient[citation needed], and the discharge cycle converting electricity into mechanical power is about 95% efficient, resulting in 81% of each kW·h is put to use. The electricity generating system in the USA loses 9.5% of the power transmitted between the power station and the socket, and the power stations are 33% efficient in turning the calorific value of fuel at the powerstation to electrical power[33]. Overall this results in an efficiency of 0.81*0.3=24.2% from fuel in to the power station, to power into the motor of the EV.
Production and conversion electric cars typically use 10 to 23 kW·h/100 km (0.17 to 0.37 kW·h/mi).[34][35] Approximately 20% of this power consumption is due to inefficiencies in charging the batteries. Tesla Motors indicates that the well to wheels[36] energy consumption of their li-ion powered vehicle is 10.9 kW·h/100 km (0.176 kW·h/mi). The US fleet average of 10 L/100 km (23 mpg US) of gasoline is equivalent to 96 kW·h/100 km (1.58 kW·h/mi) and the 3.4 L/100 km (70 mpg US) Honda Insight uses 32 kW·h/100 km (0.52 kW·h/mi) (assuming 9.6 kW·h per liter of gasoline), so hybrid electric vehicles are relatively energy efficient, and battery electric vehicles are much more energy efficient.
Production and conversion electric cars typically use 10 to 23 kW·h/100 km (0.17 to 0.37 kW·h/mi).[34][35] Approximately 20% of this power consumption is due to inefficiencies in charging the batteries. Tesla Motors indicates that the well to wheels[36] energy consumption of their li-ion powered vehicle is 10.9 kW·h/100 km (0.176 kW·h/mi). The US fleet average of 10 L/100 km (23 mpg US) of gasoline is equivalent to 96 kW·h/100 km (1.58 kW·h/mi) and the 3.4 L/100 km (70 mpg US) Honda Insight uses 32 kW·h/100 km (0.52 kW·h/mi) (assuming 9.6 kW·h per liter of gasoline), so hybrid electric vehicles are relatively energy efficient, and battery electric vehicles are much more energy efficient.
So humor me good sir, humor me...
Last edited by joltdudeuc; Sep 25, 2008 at 04:59 PM.
It's all about initial costs. within 10 years, hopefully, electric cars will be in the $20-30K range, which means affordable, and then you'll see all the benefits of clean electric cars.
I mean, at worst, it's 5.2 cents per mile right now. That's about $1 every 20 miles. Typical civic or something gets like 400miles to a tank at 13 gallons... this is would like paying $20 to "fill up" at 400miles... Gasoline would have to be at $1.54 to match that.
It looks like I have some reading to catch up on tonight 
The best part about all this is that Solar energy will get cheaper in the next few years with tech advances in panel efficiency and manufacturer costs. If we can get some kits installed in homes for not a lot, then eventually we will all be creating energy to the grid, lower the cost of electricity to everyone and increasing the supply of it. Also makes your bill cheaper, which will pay for itself in like 10-15 years.
Even the car should pay for itself eventually.
Think about savings in oil, spark plugs, timing belts, broken rods, worn rings.... anything to go with the engine will be practically gone. It's amazing stuff.
Even the car should pay for itself eventually.
Think about savings in oil, spark plugs, timing belts, broken rods, worn rings.... anything to go with the engine will be practically gone. It's amazing stuff.
Talk about creating jobs, Tesla is building their $60K luxury electric here in San Jose. Not to mention new plants get built in other places, that will create jobs too.
Vote YES on Prop 7. **** PG&E trying to get out of this. Even is electricity goes up a but to offset the plants it's better for us in the long run.