Let's take a look at what happened yesterday...

In 2000 we had Dubya & Albert A. Gore, Jr.... Gore being the man that lost the election but seized the popular vote by a relatively thin margin.

Here's the difference for the popular vote of 2000: 0.51% with a 543,895 spread of voters between the Democrat and Republican candidates.

How many people voted in 2000: 104,338,854


Now let's talk about 2004 in relation to 2000, shall we?

Here's the difference for the popular vote of 2004: 3.00% with a current 3,530,818 spread of voters between the Democrat and Republican candidates -along- with ballots still being counted.

How many people voted in 2004 thus far: 114,052,716 total voters!


A staggering difference of 9,713,862 voters since 2000... enough people to fill Wrigley field 250 times over! These "hopeful voters" voted in favor of Bush with a +2.49% popular vote difference going in the opposite direction of the Democrats. A staggering & historical feat that has ultimately led to a future Kerry concession speech & little chance for any legal battles...

I'm assuming this increase of voters were the youthful Kerry voters I kept hearing about whenever a pro-Bush poll was posted here but whatever... :rolleyes:









































So what happened here?





And what do you honestly expect to happen in the next 4 years?

[i]And what do you honestly expect to happen in the next 4 years?


Well, honestly - i'm trying to keep a good perspective on this.

I don't really think my life will change that much - I'm 23, i make more money than most families do, and im not really law breaker. Over the next four years we are going to lose alot more wildlands, and that sucks, because i love the woods and whatnot. I really think Bush is making lots of wrong descisions based on faith and greed that will take a long time to undo - but i think they will eventually be undone. So, even though bush is likely to screw up our ecomony more, i really think that the impact we see in our lives will be minimal - they will seem huge because of news or documentaries. I think Bush is going to try and re-instate the draft at one point, which will suck - but the public outcry will be overwhelming, and it wont work. So, even though I'm bummed - its not the end of the world.

Here is a great quote my freind just sent me, and i definitley agree with it.

Despite the alleged "split" in the country.... 1) There were no riots in the street. 2) All candidates who started the election process are still alive today. 3) No cities are on fire and there is no looting 4) We all witnessed a historical election which will set the tone for the next generation and we all traveled to work as if it was a normal day. This is the process that the founding fathers envisioned. In an election where more people voted than ever before we should stop and think what we have accomplished . It is great to be an American

Cheers

Must've been all that media bias.

I think the media bias does a lot to polarize people, and galvanize voting and non voting conservatives and spurring the latter to actually vote. I know it did for me, I voted in my first presidential election. I failed to do so in the last election where I would have voted for Gore, I was a little naive about politics back then.

Well, honestly - i'm trying to keep a good perspective on this.

I don't really think my life will change that much - I'm 23, i make more money than most families do, and im not really law breaker. Over the next four years we are going to lose alot more wildlands, and that sucks, because i love the woods and whatnot. I really think Bush is making lots of wrong descisions based on faith and greed that will take a long time to undo - but i think they will eventually be undone. So, even though bush is likely to screw up our ecomony more, i really think that the impact we see in our lives will be minimal - they will seem huge because of news or documentaries. I think Bush is going to try and re-instate the draft at one point, which will suck - but the public outcry will be overwhelming, and it wont work. So, even though I'm bummed - its not the end of the world.

Here is a great quote my freind just sent me, and i definitley agree with it.



Cheers

Now that's a post that deserves applause. We can all disagree without the world ending.

I agree.

I was quite vested in this election because of several things. Friends in the military, homosexual acquaintances that I feel should have the right to be united with the person of their choosing, people having the right to do whatever they choose with their body even if it disagrees with my beliefs, and finally, funds that go to education.

While I make an excellent salary for a person of my age, the funds for my job (administrator for a school district) is on "soft money." From year to year, I am not guaranteed that I will have a job for the next contract year. It is all based on funds budgeted by the government. Honestly, with Bush, I've seen our system of public education decline. I am afraid this pattern will continue. Not just for my job, but for the future of our kids who can't afford private schools.

I was also very much involved in campaigning for the Democratic candidate for the gubernatorial seat for my state (Utah). The Republican winner plans on yanking funds out of public schools and this scares me.

So, unfortunately for me, this election very well may have an effect on my life. Life goes on, of course. But I would be lying if I said I'm not concerned for the next four years.

Utah voted to ban gay marriage. Not very surprising considering the prevelance of members of the Mormon church. "people having the right to do whatever they choose with their body even if it disagrees with my beliefs" what exactly are you refferring to?

Utah voted to ban gay marriage. Not very surprising considering the prevelance of members of the Mormon church.

I never did understand Mormons....You can have 10 wives but being homosexual is against God's word. :rolleyes:

I never did understand Mormons....You can have 10 wives but being homosexual is against God's word. :rolleyes:

The Mormon church does not endorse polygamy, if you're a member practicing plural marriage then you will be ex communicated (kicked out of the church).
In thier defense there were many instances in the Bible where prophets and others had more than one wife, on occasions the commandment for them to wed more than one wife came directly from God. In both the instance of polygamy and their stance on homosexuality both were apparent revelations from God, or so Mormons believe. Whats not to understand?

what is a Mormon?

Its slang for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Much of "Mormon" church doctorine comes from a book called the Book of Mormon. It tells the story of a civilization on the North American continent founded by a prophet and his family that came from Jerusalem before it was destroyed and the Visitation of christ to these people and and various prophecies and revelations from God to the prophets of these people. Mormons believe that this book was made known to the first prophet of their church (Joseph Smith) at the age of 16 by a resurrected being named Moroni I believe and he later retrieved the book at the messengers instruction and translated it with instruments also found with the book. They also believe in a living prophet and have a quorum of apostles, twelve to be exact.

Apparently the book is an abridgement of a much larger book. The form of the book before it was translated was said to be golden plates.

Utah voted to ban gay marriage. Not very surprising considering the prevelance of members of the Mormon church. "people having the right to do whatever they choose with their body even if it disagrees with my beliefs" what exactly are you refferring to?

Abortion.

Wow, deyes. You know more about mormons than I do and I've lived in the state my whole life.

Let's take a look at what happened yesterday...

In 2000 we had Dubya & Albert A. Gore, Jr.... Gore being the man that lost the election but seized the popular vote by a relatively thin margin.

Here's the difference for the popular vote of 2000: 0.51% with a 543,895 spread of voters between the Democrat and Republican candidates.

How many people voted in 2000: 104,338,854


Now let's talk about 2004 in relation to 2000, shall we?

Here's the difference for the popular vote of 2004: 3.00% with a current 3,530,818 spread of voters between the Democrat and Republican candidates -along- with ballots still being counted.

How many people voted in 2004 thus far: 114,052,716 total voters!


A staggering difference of 9,713,862 voters since 2000... enough people to fill Wrigley field 250 times over! These "hopeful voters" voted in favor of Bush with a +2.49% popular vote difference going in the opposite direction of the Democrats. A staggering & historical feat that has ultimately led to a future Kerry concession speech & little chance for any legal battles...

I'm assuming this increase of voters were the youthful Kerry voters I kept hearing about whenever a pro-Bush poll was posted here but whatever... :rolleyes:









































So what happened here?





And what do you honestly expect to happen in the next 4 years?

Three words

black box voting

http://www.blackboxvoting.com/


(as one might expect- their server is real busy today)

Religious right turn out larger than expected. Thats about the only reason I can think that he won.

Three words

black box voting

http://www.blackboxvoting.com/


(as one might expect- their server is real busy today)


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v282/sierra11b/Emoticons/172.gif

Abortion.

Wow, deyes. You know more about mormons than I do and I've lived in the state my whole life.

There are more Mormons in CA than in any other state in the union. I happen to know a lot of Mormons. They're good people, a lot of people seem not to like them. I find that those people know little about the Mormon religion, and what they do know is more often then not completely false or misunderstood.

They're good people, a lot of people seem not to like them. I find that those people know little about the Mormon religion, and what they do know is more often then not completely false or misunderstood.

Read some books called "under the banner of heaven" and "red water". Mormons are nice people, i worked for them for years in el dorado hills. They were all blond and blandly polite. Their religion, quite honestly though, is absolutley insane. As i said before, the only way you could possible believe that malarkey is to have it smashed throught he cracks in your skull before they fuse. It's right up there with scientology. Sorry if there are any mormons here, but thats how i feel.

Also, they are slowly leaking into power here in california - and that makes me nervous - good people or not.

In 1857, in a field in southern Utah, a party of Mormons and Native Americans slaughtered more than a hundred men, women and children who were traveling to California. Only one man was ever tried, and executed, for the horror that became known as the Mountain Meadows Massacre John D. Lee.

Mormons have some crazy ideas... and ex-gf of mine use to be a mormon before she left the religion. She told me some crazy stories. Some of the stuff the believe is like "WOOOO wtf?!" type of deal.

I knew a Mormon a few years ago. At 18 years old she got pregnant by her boyfriend who had no job and quit school after high school and refused to wear a condom as it's against their religion. They now live with their big family who are popping out kids like Pez candy and only the parents can hold down a job. It's a pathetic religion that shuns birth control.

I have tons of mormom horror stories - but on a core level the religion tries to teach them to be good people, and thats respectable - but sadly the more retarded parts of their religion that their predatory shaman of a founder penned in last minute so he could manipulate his followers trip them up. They can't convert anyone in their right mind - so they have to reproduce like bunnies.

Read some books called "under the banner of heaven" and "red water". Mormons are nice people, i worked for them for years in el dorado hills. They were all blond and blandly polite. Their religion, quite honestly though, is absolutley insane. As i said before, the only way you could possible believe that malarkey is to have it smashed throught he cracks in your skull before they fuse. It's right up there with scientology. Sorry if there are any mormons here, but thats how i feel.

Also, they are slowly leaking into power here in california - and that makes me nervous - good people or not.

Under the Banner of Heaven!?

"Reviews the life and beliefs of incarcerated Mormon polygamist Ron Lafferty, who received a "revelation from God" that he was to kill his brother's wife and baby. Twenty years later he is still convinced the deed was righteous, justified in his mind by an extreme fundamentalist rendition of the LDS-based faith."

He was not a member of the LDS church, they do not practice polygamy. If he were he would have been ex communicated not to mention the fact that he's a murderer. In fact he was "an extreme fundamentalist" of an "LDS-based faith."

And Red Water!? This is what the author had to say about her book.

"I know this is fiction and Freeman says at the end of the book : "this book is a work of the imagination" and she cautions readers NOT to read it as a version of history.
Veiled in its secret ceremonies and rituals, Mormonism is always going to be looked at suspiciously. Surely their leaders must know this and figure it is the price they must pay."

Have you even read those books? As I said I find that those people know little about the Mormon religion, and what they do know is more often then not completely false or misunderstood.

They were all blond and blandly polite.

I've known a lot of Mormons that were not. But then if you don't stereotype them its hard to justify your bigotry.


Their religion, quite honestly though, is absolutley insane.

Nothing about their doctrine, or the beginnings of their religion are any more remarkable (or insane as you put it) than any other religion I've yet studied.


As i said before, the only way you could possible believe that malarkey is to have it smashed throught he cracks in your skull before they fuse. It's right up there with scientology. Sorry if there are any mormons here, but thats how i feel.

Also, they are slowly leaking into power here in california - and that makes me nervous - good people or not.

You're a bigot, deal with it.

Mormons have some crazy ideas... and ex-gf of mine use to be a mormon before she left the religion. She told me some crazy stories. Some of the stuff the believe is like "WOOOO wtf?!" type of deal.

Way to sound informed and back up your opinions.

I knew a Mormon a few years ago. At 18 years old she got pregnant by her boyfriend who had no job and quit school after high school and refused to wear a condom as it's against their religion. They now live with their big family who are popping out kids like Pez candy and only the parents can hold down a job. It's a pathetic religion that shuns birth control.

You are grossly mis informed, I know for a fact that a lot of my Mormon freinds use all manners of contraceptive. And having a lot of kids and not being able to hold down a job seems to be an American past time as of late and is certainly not a by product of the Mormon religion.

I have tons of mormom horror stories - but on a core level the religion tries to teach them to be good people, and thats respectable - but sadly the more retarded parts of their religion that their predatory shaman of a founder penned in last minute so he could manipulate his followers trip them up. They can't convert anyone in their right mind - so they have to reproduce like bunnies.

First hand horror stories or just stories from blatantly antimormon literature? Lets try not to demonize people and prove your point by saying things like "predatory shaman". It really doesn't help your case.

There are more Mormons in CA than in any other state in the union. I happen to know a lot of Mormons. They're good people, a lot of people seem not to like them. I find that those people know little about the Mormon religion, and what they do know is more often then not completely false or misunderstood.

I agree. Good people, etc., etc. But growing up in Utah and being the minority (non-mormon) tends to make you a little angry at "The Man."

That I can completly understand, what I find hard to stomach is some of our other posters attitudes and justifications for them.

Also, they are slowly leaking into power here in california - and that makes me nervous - good people or not.


Yeah, it seems to me that a lot of people in CA don't want good people in a position of power.

Ok, you guys. Enough with the mormon slamming. The point of my original post was not how bad mormons are. In fact, I never said a thing about mormons. The point was my fear for the next four years and that I may be effected directly by yesterday's elections.

On another note, I have a friend who lives in a European country and even though these people hate him and ridicule him daily, he has decided he will not be returning to "live in a country that supports a war-mongering president like George Bush."

Now that you Republicans have won the election, I think its time we all try to solve problems like this. Don't say that it doesn't matter what other countries think about our policy, don't ignore them. It does matter. We DO have to do something to improve our reputation worldwide. It is important that we have a strong coalition, especially if we plan to wage a global war on terror.

Is your freind giving up his citizenship or is he just living abroad? I'm not for ignoring other countries, but you have to understand that those people want what is best for them not us. And people in that position are not the best advisors. That said a strong coalition against terror is a must.

Nothing about their doctrine, or the beginnings of their religion are any more remarkable (or insane as you put it) than any other religion I've yet studied.


Hahaha jeez, bigot is such a strong word, deyes. Let me put it this way - i think just about every religion is insane. Every religion is beautiful, weird, mysterious, psychedelic, necessary and destructive - but in the end every single one boils down to a series of stories and principles that try and keep us hairless apes from raping and killing each other ALL THE TIME and to attempt to explain the great mystery of our existence. But its just mythology. The gods of the ancient greeks were just as real to them as jesus is to you - oh yeah, but they are MYTHOLOGY, right? There is no possible way that JESUS falls into that category as well, right? NUH UH. Because the greek religion died off, so obviously the most enduring religion must be the correct one....Ooops, wait, that would make it Bhuddism! PAGANS! PAGANS!

Joseph smith was a predatory shaman, a man who basically modified the bible so he could have multiple wives. Regardless of whether he was a good guy or not, he was what is regarded as a shaman. A spiritual leader. And because of his desire to **** multiple women, he is predatory. Now, don't try and pass off his motives as being higher than the average joe's - if there was a man attempting that today you'd call him a manipulate womanizer. Luckily, nothing blurs the lines quite like time and a hugely successful religion, right?

I'm sorry to get your goat deyes - but im not a bigot - I dont hate PEOPLE- I just wish people wouldnt subscribe to such absurd fairlytales and claim them to be the complete and final truth

sorry for the threadjack, im done

He translates books into English. So he is just working abroad.

Is your freind giving up his citizenship or is he just living abroad? I'm not for ignoring other countries, but you have to understand that those people want what is best for them not us. And people in that position are not the best advisors. That said a strong coalition against terror is a must.

Isn't that what we want? How can we blame them for wanting what is best for them? Plus, most of these countries were ravaged by war just 60 years ago and they are very much against going to war. They view that as a last resort. I can't help but agree with them.

There are more Mormons in CA than in any other state in the union. I happen to know a lot of Mormons. They're good people, a lot of people seem not to like them. I find that those people know little about the Mormon religion, and what they do know is more often then not completely false or misunderstood.


I know PLENTY about mormanism and can't stand them. I live in Antioch, a largely mormon city. My girlfriend of four years was a mormon. Mormon's beliefes are more in line with a cult than a religion. End of story. Why don't you explain to the folks here how the mormons believe when you die you become the equivilent to gods over other planets. And don't try and tell me I'm making that one up. A got into a long debate with a Mormon Bishop at the Oakland, CA temple about three years ago and that is exactly what he was proclaiming. Nut jobs they are. One thing I will give them, however, is that they are a peaceful religion, so I have no problem with them there.

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/mormon.htm

-Chris

p.s. they think god lives near a star called Kolob. Koo koo!

"God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218, 1857; Vol. 8, p. 115). This one is disputed among many Mormons and not always 'officially' taught and believed. Nevertheless, Brigham Young, the second prophet of the Mormon church, taught it."

KOO KOO I SAY!

Hahaha jeez, bigot is such a strong word, deyes. Let me put it this way - i think just about every religion is insane. Every religion is beautiful, weird, mysterious, psychedelic, necessary and destructive - but in the end every single one boils down to a series of stories and principles that try and keep us hairless apes from raping and killing each other ALL THE TIME and to attempt to explain the great mystery of our existence. But its just mythology. The gods of the ancient greeks were just as real to them as jesus is to you - oh yeah, but they are MYTHOLOGY, right? There is no possible way that JESUS falls into that category as well, right? NUH UH. Because the greek religion died off, so obviously the most enduring religion must be the correct one....Ooops, wait, that would make it Bhuddism! PAGANS! PAGANS!

If you don't like religion that your choice, I didn't say anything about who's religion was right or not.



a man who basically modified the bible so he could have multiple wives.

Modified the Bible? You have not read any part of the Book of Mormon have you? It says nothing in there about multiple wives, that was a later "revelation" by the prophet and is detailed in another Mormon scripture called the Doctrine and Covenants.


Regardless of whether he was a good guy or not, he was what is regarded as a shaman. A spiritual leader. And because of his desire to **** multiple women, he is predatory. Now, don't try and pass off his motives as being higher than the average joe's - if there was a man attempting that today you'd call him a manipulate womanizer.

Actually I would call him a man between 12yrs old and dead. lol!



I'm sorry to get your goat deyes - but im not a bigot - I dont hate PEOPLE- I just wish people wouldnt subscribe to such absurd fairlytales and claim them to be the complete and final truth

sorry for the threadjack, im done

The first step to conquering bigotry is to first admit it to ones self constellation. I hope you can take that first step with me. lol! I too am done.

I know PLENTY about mormanism and can't stand them. I live in Antioch, a largely mormon city. My girlfriend of four years was a mormon. Mormon's beliefes are more in line with a cult than a religion. End of story.

Cult, religion who are we to say?

Why don't you explain to the folks here how the mormons believe when you die you become the equivilent to gods over other planets. And don't try and tell me I'm making that one up. A got into a long debate with a Mormon Bishop at the Oakland, CA temple about three years ago and that is exactly what he was proclaiming.

No arguement there, a lot of Mormons do believe that, although I'm not sure if it is official doctorine. That belief stems from a verse in the Bible proclaiming that the followers of Christ were to be joint heirs to their fathers kingdom. Actually the way it was explained to me was quite logical, why would a father want anything less than he has for his children? Where we created to be in eternal servitude to God or for something more? You make the call.

p.s. they think god lives near a star called Kolob. Koo koo!


He's got to live somewhere right? lol!



"God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218, 1857; Vol. 8, p. 115). This one is disputed among many Mormons and not always 'officially' taught and believed. Nevertheless, Brigham Young, the second prophet of the Mormon church, taught it."

KOO KOO I SAY!

I'd venture a guess and say that if its "not always 'officially' taught and believed"
Then its probably not official teaching and doctrine of the LDS church. As I said no more remarkable or crazy than any other religion out there.

Modified the Bible? You have not read any part of the Book of Mormon have you? It says nothing in there about multiple wives, that was a later "revelation" by the prophet and is detailed in another Mormon scripture called the Doctrine and Covenants.

The Book of Mormon has shapeshifted in eary ways. I know of Mormon families who, in the 1970s, participated in large book burning ceremonies. This was done to eradicate certain aspects of their faith to give them a clean slate. I have heard this from the mouths of those participants.

If they want to start their own religion that is there own perogative. But piggy-backing on the Christian faith does not need to be and should not be tolerated by earnest believers of Christ. This is the bane of living in a relativist, politically-correct society

Actually I would call him a man between 12yrs old and dead. lol!


Hhaahaha, you got me there.

I'd venture a guess and say that if its "not always 'officially' taught and believed"
Then its probably not official teaching and doctrine of the LDS church. As I said no more remarkable or crazy than any other religion out there.


But it was tought by their primary spokesman. Hell, they've named their colleges after him. Supporting the memory of a man who tought such things as that makes me question a mormans intelligence.

-Chris

The Book of Mormon has shapeshifted in eary ways. I know of Mormon families who, in the 1970s, participated in large book burning ceremonies. This was done to eradicate certain aspects of their faith to give them a clean slate. I have heard this from the mouths of those participants.

I've heard that words were changed after it was first printed, this is the first I've heard of any book burning ceremonies. But I've found no end to Mormon persecution, the number of anti Mormon websites is astounding! I think that there has been more effort to debunk the Mormon religion than any other religion in history! I believe this is reflex of other faiths that are "losing" conversions to what I read somewhere is the fastest growing religion on the planet.


If they want to start their own religion that is there own perogative. But piggy-backing on the Christian faith does not need to be and should not be tolerated by earnest believers of Christ. This is the bane of living in a relativist, politically-correct society.

Some people don't need others to tell them they are Christians.

But it was tought by their primary spokesman. Hell, they've named their colleges after him. Supporting the memory of a man who tought such things as that makes me question a mormans intelligence.

-Chris

My question would be was he acting officialy as a prophet when he made such statements? In other words did he claim that it was revelation from God or was it how he as a man interpereted something? We celebrate Columbus day in this country for crying out loud! What is stupid about followers of a Church naming a college or street after one of their early prophets?

p.s. they think god lives near a star called Kolob. Koo koo!



Haha, that made me laugh. I don't know whether its true or not, but there's an area of Utah called Kolob. Haha

My question would be was he acting officialy as a prophet when he made such statements? In other words did he claim that it was revelation from God or was it how he as a man interpereted something? We celebrate Columbus day in this country for crying out loud! What is stupid about followers of a Church naming a college or street after one of their early prophets?


He claimed to be a prophet I believe. And since you made that statement earlier, I'll give you some examples how wacked out that religion is. A friend of mine who is a mormon right now, has a sister who pops out children as fast as she can so the souls of other mormons can come back to Earth, something like that. Also no coffee for them because why? You guessed it religious reasons. Wanna know the real reason? It was a cash crop. This is a religion formed around a man who was a cult leader you figure it out. Shrug whats the point of this you still won't agree that mormons have a wacky religion.

p.s. they think god lives near a star called Kolob. Koo koo!

HAHAHAHAH Don't they all get a planet?!

He claimed to be a prophet I believe. And since you made that statement earlier, I'll give you some examples how wacked out that religion is. A friend of mine who is a mormon right now, has a sister who pops out children as fast as she can so the souls of other mormons can come back to Earth, something like that. Also no coffee for them because why? You guessed it religious reasons. Wanna know the real reason? It was a cash crop. This is a religion formed around a man who was a cult leader you figure it out. Shrug whats the point of this you still won't agree that mormons have a wacky religion.



HAHAHAHAH Don't they all get a planet?!

Right but when he was peeing or talking cars he wasn't acting as the pro[het in his official capacity. In other words, did he say "this is revelation I received from god" or did he say as an ordinary man "I think.." and Mormons don't believe in reincarnation. I don't agree with you cause you don't know ish about it. You just can't admit it because that would mean that ther is no justification for your hate. Lets see hate based on ignorance. What does that make? What was a cash crop, the kids?

Don't they all get a planet?!

Yup. Only if they were married in a mormon temple though. Seriously, visit the site below. It's filled with fun facts with references to official mormon books/teachings as proof. Some of this stuff will keep you laughing for hours.

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/mormon.htm

-Chris

again, to clarify, I don't 'hate' mormons by any stretch of the term. They are peaceful, and other than thier annoying missionaries going door to door cause few problems. I do however strogly disagree with thier beliefs and hold a bit of contempt/anger that they brainwash their family and friends with their nonsence. The same brainwashing that likely led to Utah voting Bush based on 'moral values.' :rolleyes: Anyone who can honestly believe the garbage the that the mormons spew should not be allowed to vote.

Ok your telling me I don't know **** about mormons but yet I have a friend that is that I have had "debates" with over this issue. The main fact is that he is gay and yet wants to be a mormon but can't. You don't know me or my friends in person so don't act like I don't know **** about it. I have done my research about it. And yes for your information tabacoo and coffee where cash crops and though he didn't state that as the reason why. It is wildly understood that money was the reason why he said this. Second I don't hate anyone. I just disagree strongly with this as a faith because to me it seems more like a cult. I won't even get into the marriage practices that they have....

Bush won 'cause he's a hick. Just look at the geography of the states (or better yet, counties) he won... He'd have no hope if he wasn't able to connect to those 'rural-folk' on a hillbilly-to-hillbilly level. Also, he wouldn't have ever been able to win on his own record and performance- he knew it himself- he spent most of his time picking apart his opponent and trying to play on the fear of the American people. I found it hilarious when Bush did a 180 today, calling him an 'admirable and worthy opponent.' If he had admitted this earlier and had not placed such a negative connotation on liberalism (not to mention other tear-down efforts)- He'd be moving out in January.

[/spite] (though there could be lots of truth here...) :)




I'd just like for people who voted for Bush to realize and acknowledge that the opposing point of view, which was portrayed by the Bush campaign as 'radically liberal' and 'dangerous for America,' was actually shared by nearly the same amount of people as those who supported the president. Given it is a generally geographical (country/city) bias, it is easy to see how people can be sheltered from other viable opinions and value bases. But after an election like this, one simply can't ignore or refuse to acknoledge that TENS OF MILLIONS of people disagree with the current state of many aspects of our country- and some things might... just might, need to be changed just a tad. He may be a little slow, but I know even Dubya can understand this, and deep down, he knows he NEEDS to make an effort to gain the respect and support of those who voted against him. He even had a quote along these lines in his victory speech today, saying that he will work to gain the support of those people.

I heard a quote from one of the hundreds of newsanchors or guests on the TV electon coverage that I thought was worth repeating:
"We have two candidates running for president , and half of our country thinks each one of them is and idiot or a panty-waist."
...this reminds me of Jon Stewarts' view...

I believe Kerry lost also because he promised too much change, which I believe scared people who either were fine with things now, or were simply under/misinformed on the issues in which Kerry called for change.

Here's what I ask of Bush:


-Realize some people don't believe in God (you can let religion guide you if you need that, just don't publicly infer that you are carrying out god's wishes)
-Put more value the environment- don't make environmental concessions for economic reasons- we can't move backward.

If he can do this, he would have made the effort necessary in my eyes to gain the support of many who voted against him.































Lets all have a group hug....

Yup. Only if they were married in a mormon temple though. Seriously, visit the site below. It's filled with fun facts with references to official mormon books/teachings as proof. Some of this stuff will keep you laughing for hours.

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/mormon.htm

-Chris

again, to clarify, I don't 'hate' mormons by any stretch of the term. They are peaceful, and other than thier annoying missionaries going door to door cause few problems. I do however strogly disagree with thier beliefs and hold a bit of contempt/anger that they brainwash their family and friends with their nonsence. The same brainwashing that likely led to Utah voting Bush based on 'moral values.' :rolleyes: Anyone who can honestly believe the garbage the that the mormons spew should not be allowed to vote.




Haha... mormons..... I know a girl who wasn't allowed in her OWN BROTHER'S wedding- cause it was at the 'temple,' and she was no longer considered 'temple-worthy,' since she lost her virginity. Now that's just ***D UP.

I just happen to be a direct descendat of Brigham Young, the founder of the mormon church... Keep in mind though, this playa had something like 250 children. ...All with the same wife, I suppose, since polygamy and extramarital sex are forbidden by the church. ;)

Contradiction and hypocricy at it best...




Don't even get me started on that 'moral values' BS. When I saw on TV that this was the top issue which people voted on - and ~80% of people who held this as the top issue voted Republican... it scared me to death.

What are moral values anyway? Well... each person in this country probably has a different answer to that queston. I find it surprising that so many people continue to cling to archaic biblical values. In order to comply with these evangelical beliefs, other values are overlooked and placed aside. I think people need to take a step back, think seriously about our modern world, and consider making some concessions for a more tangable and current purpose.

... polygamy and extramarital sex are forbidden by the church. ;) .

Not until like 1890 or so, at least the polygamy part- I think it was one of the terms required before Utah was granted statehood.

Not until like 1890 or so, at least the polygamy part- I think it was one of the terms required before Utah was granted statehood.

Ah,
I realize that it didn't apply when he was spreadin' the seed way back in the day. Also, if you didn't already, please notice the sarcasm in that sentence... hence the ;)

Ah,
I realize that it didn't apply when he was spreadin' the seed way back in the day. Also, if you didn't already, please notice the sarcasm in that sentence... hence the ;)

I figured you knew, I just wanted to set the record straight for those that might not have known better.

Ok your telling me I don't know **** about mormons but yet I have a friend that is that I have had "debates" with over this issue. The main fact is that he is gay and yet wants to be a mormon but can't. You don't know me or my friends in person so don't act like I don't know **** about it. I have done my research about it. And yes for your information tabacoo and coffee where cash crops and though he didn't state that as the reason why. It is wildly understood that money was the reason why he said this. Second I don't hate anyone. I just disagree strongly with this as a faith because to me it seems more like a cult. I won't even get into the marriage practices that they have....

You don't know ish about it, sorry. The "Word of Wisdom" says "hot" drinks, coffee and tea as was widely accepted, turns out that caffine is addictive. Tabbacco was another one, turns out it causes cancer. Eat red meat sparingly, turns out too much can cause problems, go figure. Marriage practices that they had, not have.

Haha... mormons..... I know a girl who wasn't allowed in her OWN BROTHER'S wedding- cause it was at the 'temple,' and she was no longer considered 'temple-worthy,' since she lost her virginity. Now that's just ***D UP.

I just happen to be a direct descendat of Brigham Young, the founder of the mormon church... Keep in mind though, this playa had something like 250 children. ...All with the same wife, I suppose, since polygamy and extramarital sex are forbidden by the church. ;)

Contradiction and hypocricy at it best...




Don't even get me started on that 'moral values' BS. When I saw on TV that this was the top issue which people voted on - and ~80% of people who held this as the top issue voted Republican... it scared me to death.

What are moral values anyway? Well... each person in this country probably has a different answer to that queston. I find it surprising that so many people continue to cling to archaic biblical values. In order to comply with these evangelical beliefs, other values are overlooked and placed aside. I think people need to take a step back, think seriously about our modern world, and consider making some concessions for a more tangable and current purpose.

No kidding your freind wasn't let into the temple because she had premarrital sex? Is fornication only a major sin in the Mormon church? And Joseph Smith was the founder, Brigham Young was the second prophet. To understand polygamy you must understand that the Mormons believe that you have to be married in the temple to enter the highest level of heaven. There are three in their theology. At the time there were not a lot of worthy males, due in part to the persecution and murder of Mormons in the early years. Wrong or right the problem of these worthy women not being married to a man that can take them to the temple was "addressed" by polygamy. Other Christians are so quick to debunk the Mormon religion by using polygamy, all the while ignoring the numerous times it happened in Biblical times, even at the direction of God!

Yup. Only if they were married in a mormon temple though. Seriously, visit the site below. It's filled with fun facts with references to official mormon books/teachings as proof. Some of this stuff will keep you laughing for hours.

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/mormon.htm

-Chris

again, to clarify, I don't 'hate' mormons by any stretch of the term. They are peaceful, and other than thier annoying missionaries going door to door cause few problems. I do however strogly disagree with thier beliefs and hold a bit of contempt/anger that they brainwash their family and friends with their nonsence. The same brainwashing that likely led to Utah voting Bush based on 'moral values.' :rolleyes: Anyone who can honestly believe the garbage the that the mormons spew should not be allowed to vote.

I try not to get my information soley from anti Mormon sites. So teaching your kids your beliefs is brainwashing? I'm guilty, but if not me then whom? You don't believe as they do, cool. But calling it garbage and saying they should not be allowed to vote and what not kinda doesn't go hand in hand with you not hating them. Is the Mormon religion the only one you hate or is it Jews too, they have temples that they won't let just anyone into? How do you feel about Bhudists are their beliefs garbage? Should Hidu's be allowed to vote? I hear they think there is a god that has the head of an Elephant.

And about all this becoming Gods and creating planets stuff read Romans 8:17 they believe that as children of God when we "grow up" we can become like God. Grow up to be like dad? That is crazy.

No kidding your freind wasn't let into the temple because she had premarrital sex? Is fornication only a major sin in the Mormon church? And Joseph Smith was the founder, Brigham Young was the second prophet. To understand polygamy you must understand that the Mormons believe that you have to be married in the temple to enter the highest level of heaven. There are three in their theology. At the time there were not a lot of worthy males, due in part to the persecution and murder of Mormons in the early years. Wrong or right the problem of these worthy women not being married to a man that can take them to the temple was "addressed" by polygamy. Other Christians are so quick to debunk the Mormon religion by using polygamy, all the while ignoring the numerous times it happened in Biblical times, even at the direction of God!


I'm confused... how is this a response to what I said? If you are speaking to one point I made, delete the rest in your quote to make it a little more clear.

In the first sentence of your post, are you surprised or being sarcastic? And what is the point of the next question you ask? I see myself as fairly bright, so I don't think it's my lack of ability to infer that's preventing me from understanding your point. Can you clarify?

I'm not harping on polygamy, I'm just not cool with someone not being able to watch their sibling get married, just because of some 'irrefutable sin,' which, by the way, is FAR out of date (in my opinion, of course). Fornication, like I think you were trying to point out (correct me if I'm wrong), is also looked upon badly by other religions, just not to the nazi-like extent of the mormons.

If you read what you said then its a point for point response. I was being sarcastic in my first sentence, you were outraged because she was not allowed to view what you believe she should have. Its a cultural thing, why be outraged? Nazi like? Man lets not play the association game it does little for your argument. They are not letting her into a temple, which is sacred above all else to them. She's not the first nor the last I'd imagine. They didn't march her through a gas chamber for crying out loud!

The "Word of Wisdom" says "hot" drinks, coffee and tea as was widely accepted, turns out that caffine is addictive. Tabbacco was another one, turns out it causes cancer. Eat red meat sparingly, turns out too much can cause problems, go figure. Marriage practices that they had, not have.


Can someone please translate? Is this some kind of mormon encryption? Just explain to me what the hell this guy is talking about.

People reading this (me, at least) aren't in your head and don't know your train of thought. I respect what you are trying to say... just try to be a little more clear.

He was referring to the word of wisdom when he was talking about Mormons not drinking coffee because it was a cash crop. Which is not at all true.
The word of wisdom is revelation from their prophet Joseph smith, and it was not just coffee that he said should not be consumed. A few hundred years later we learn that these thing are bad for you.

If you read what you said then its a point for point response. I was being sarcastic in my first sentence, you were outraged because she was not allowed to view what you believe she should have.


Now your putting words in my mouth.... watch your step. I don't think she should be able to wed in the temple- in fact, she doesn't want to. But to not let someone just watch? That's insane- you really think the temple is that 'virgin'? I'd be willing to bet that a considerable percentage of those who are married there aren't really virgins. By just taking people's word, they're kidding theirselves. The girl I know was the victim of small-town gossip, so she wasn't able to keep it a secret. So, if you are a good liar, you can get married in the temple, right? One word: crooked.

And, BTW, I wrote what I said- Please save the condescending tone, though I know you are FAR more high and mighty than myself.


Its a cultural thing, why be outraged? Nazi like? Man lets not play the association game it does little for your argument. They are not letting her into a temple, which is sacred above all else to them. She's not the first nor the last I'd imagine. They didn't march her through a gas chamber for crying out loud!

Her church (and parents, to an extent) disowned her. In this modern society, having such strict religious beliefs and values conflicts with changing times. I knew of four or five mormons in my high school, all in different families, who all ended up rebelling and pretty much hating their parents. Is this a coincidence? No-when people live in this society and culture and try to maintain those strict values-it simply drives many of them insane. In my opinion, the religion is outdated, archaic, and flat-out incompatible with modern society. Unless they agree to loosen the chains (some may say, abandon their values) or all live isolated from other societies, I think this religion is on it's way downhill.

And to your question asking if teaching your children is brainwashing... nobody said that before you did. Forcing your beliefs upon your offspring while trying to shelter any other view, well, borders on brainwashing. What... do you think that if a child was simply, objectively informed about the mormon religion they would choose to hold those values? Gimme a break man- get in touch with reality.

He was referring to the word of wisdom when he was talking about Mormons not drinking coffee because it was a cash crop. Which is not at all true.
The word of wisdom is revelation from their prophet Joseph smith, and it was not just coffee that he said should not be consumed. A few hundred years later we learn that these thing are bad for you.


You don't read much histroy do you? Go read up on what each of those things they couldn't "consume" was worth back then.

Now your putting words in my mouth.... watch your step. I don't think she should be able to wed in the temple- in fact, she doesn't want to. But to not let someone just watch? That's insane- you really think the temple is that 'virgin'? I'd be willing to bet that a considerable percentage of those who are married there aren't really virgins. By just taking people's word, they're kidding theirselves. The girl I know was the victim of small-town gossip, so she wasn't able to keep it a secret. So, if you are a good liar, you can get married in the temple, right? One word: crooked.


Not let someone watch?, its not about watching its about being able to enter a sacred site. If it were some obscure religion from some tropical paradise not letting a tourist onto a sacred burrial mound you would be very understanding I'm guessing, and you wouldn't have a problem with it but since its some white folks from Utah your reaction is completely different? And being worthy to enter a Mormon temple has nothing to do with being a virgin. In fact nearly all of the people I know that have entered and been married in a temple have not been virgins. Why would you think that? I'm guessing you know nothing of a temple interview. I would like to know what your friend thinks of not being let into the temple? You're angry, was she?


And, BTW, I wrote what I said- Please save the condescending tone, though I know you are FAR more high and mighty than myself.


My apologies, but unlike some I'm not above admiting I don't know as much about a subject as I thought I had. On this subject I need not make such an admission.


Her church (and parents, to an extent) disowned her. In this modern society, having such strict religious beliefs and values conflicts with changing times. I knew of four or five mormons in my high school, all in different families, who all ended up rebelling and pretty much hating their parents. Is this a coincidence? No-when people live in this society and culture and try to maintain those strict values-it simply drives many of them insane. In my opinion, the religion is outdated, archaic, and flat-out incompatible with modern society. Unless they agree to loosen the chains (some may say, abandon their values) or all live isolated from other societies, I think this religion is on it's way downhill.


Not being let into a temple isn't exactly being "disowned".was she excommunicated? As to her parents disowning her to an extent, thats unfortunate but parents are likely to be disapointed in varying degrees, Mormon parents are no exception. It seems to me that you are just trying to paint a picture of Mormon intolerance. I know of a lot of teenagers (all of them) that rebeled against their parents, and many of whom had a lasting distrust and dislike for their parents. But since these people that you mentioned are Mormon, it must be their religion that is to cause? So no its not a coincidence, its the human condition. Loosen chains!? Don't make me laugh, no one is making anyone do anything. Everyone has free agency, if you don't want to do something don't. That doesn't mean that a religion should change its teachings because people don't like being told they're doing wrong! As far as living in isolation, we're all members of this society segregation is no way for people to get along. Downhill, I think that if its the fastest growing religion on the planet then either your wrong or your idea of downhill is eskew.



And to your question asking if teaching your children is brainwashing... nobody said that before you did. Forcing your beliefs upon your offspring while trying to shelter any other view, well, borders on brainwashing. What... do you think that if a child was simply, objectively informed about the mormon religion they would choose to hold those values? Gimme a break man- get in touch with reality.

I do however strogly disagree with thier beliefs and hold a bit of contempt/anger that they brainwash their family and friends with their nonsence. The same brainwashing that likely led to Utah voting Bush based on 'moral values.' :rolleyes: Anyone who can honestly believe the garbage the that the mormons spew should not be allowed to vote.

bassplayrr said that teaching their family and freinds about their religion was "brainwashing".


I'm not sheltering my kids, at least not from making their own decisions. I'm certainly not brainwashing them, however I am not teaching them that just becuase other people are doing something that its ok for them to do. The boundries of what is acceptable in this society are constantly being pushed, when will it end? What you view as acceptable again, is up to you. Lets respect others rights to choose what is right and wrong for them, and not ridicule them because of their beliefs. No children are objectively informed about their parents religion, and its not their parents job to teach them values objectively. A parent has the obligation and duty to instil in their children values that they believe to be right and good. Its all of our rights to choose if we are to hold those values, accept new values, or even make up our own. That my freind is reality, can you feel it?

You don't read much histroy do you? Go read up on what each of those things they couldn't "consume" was worth back then.

I don't get it? What does what little money that someone may spend on alcohol, tabacco, coffee, tea, and red meat have to do with the Mormons being told not to consume them?

Read this.

A good, but unofficial take on the "Word of Wisdom". (http://www.vegsource.com/articles/catano.htm)

You sent me to a vegan site?! You do know all those products where cash crops for them back then. My friend who is an ex-LDS member stated this, and so have others. Your telling me a guy in 1833 "god" told him that these things are bad for us to consume?! And thats why we can't have them. Sorry buddy but like she said and so have others it was a MONEY thing. And tea and red meat are NOT bad for you. Tea, is actually really good for you. So is healthy amounts of red meat.

Yeah, its a vegan site but like I said its not an official site but it has some good information.

"LDS Doctrines Relating to Human Health

A core belief for Latter-day Saints is that God speaks to individuals in the present day so they can be beneficiaries of divine revelation to guide their lives. The person who has been called to lead the Church as its president is regarded as a modern prophet who passes general revelations along to the Church at large. As such, modern prophets fulfill the same function as the prophets of Biblical times in that they communicate the will of God to humankind regarding its current circumstances.

Mormons believe that in 1833 God gave by divine revelation to the first of these modern prophets, Joseph Smith, Jr. a health code that came to be known as the Word of Wisdom. Some might question why a health code, something that seems more earthly than spiritual, should be part of a religious observance in the first place. Mormon theology is consistent with a health code for several reasons.

First, the Mormon cosmology, or the Mormon view of the nature of the universe, does not divide the physical from the spiritual as separate or conflicting elements. In fact, in an 1830 LDS revelation, the Lord is quoted as saying, "...all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal..." (Doctrine and Covenants 29:34)

In such a context, the physical becomes a sub-set, or a small part of, the larger realm which is spiritual so that all of God's laws take on a spiritual significance even if they are concerned with seemingly temporal things like food or physical health. LDS doctrine is quite specific about the importance of overcoming earthly appetites especially those that lead to over-consumption, compulsion and which can be detrimental to health thereby causing physical and consequently spiritual damage."

Herbal teas are acceptable to Mormons, and red meat isn't prohibited its advise to eat sparingly which is sound advise for good health. You seem not to have even read it . Its a code for healthy living. What does some of the things it advises against being cash crops have anything to do with it? You say you've done your research but have you even read that? Have you read the book of Mormon? I see a lot of you pointing out anti Mormon sites as evidence of your beliefs but have you taken the time to find out any of this information from official Mormon sources? Because you haven't quoted any.