EQ Tuning does it again!!!
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one question.. did you have any idea with the k&n filter making your car lean before it cracked? i mean, did u get it tuned with the k&n filter, or did you just slap it on witout any monitoring/tuning? just asking since im running the stock airbox with k&n filter. but i did get it pro tuned with the k&n filter.
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one question.. did you have any idea with the k&n filter making your car lean before it cracked? i mean, did u get it tuned with the k&n filter, or did you just slap it on witout any monitoring/tuning? just asking since im running the stock airbox with k&n filter. but i did get it pro tuned with the k&n filter.
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I had it protuned with the K&N panel with EQ. The panel just didn't quite fit right and after running one for abour 30K it wore on the stock air box and broke the mounting tabs allowing turbulent airflow into the intake and possible leaning out of the motor. AT least that's what we think happened
The top portion of the air filter box...with the MAF sensor...was not completely sealed to the bottom half of the filter box?
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I had it protuned with the K&N panel with EQ. The panel just didn't quite fit right and after running one for abour 30K it wore on the stock air box and broke the mounting tabs allowing turbulent airflow into the intake and possible leaning out of the motor. AT least that's what we think happened
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Since a protune is based on a specific set of components (exhaust, intake, turbo, etc) if the air flow is changed through the top of the airbox coming off allowing a differential in intake volume, this could possibly cause too lean conditions.
Although the ill fitting filter was not the direct cause of the lean conditions, it most likely lead to the failure of the mounting tabs that kept the top half secured to the bottom half of the air box.
Later, when I had EQ pull the motor, the rings on #4 were cracked. Everything else (besides the stupid smog pump that fails on 06/07's resulting in a few bent exhaust valves) was mechanically fine/in spec.
It was not Ed's or EQ Tuning's fault that my airbox failed or caused leaning out of the motor. I did my own maintenance service. As a testament to Ed's work, after my airbox failure my motor ran strong with a cracked ring for another +30K with a VF48, 2010 STi tmic and 65mm aps intake with an EQ tune.
Last edited by bpatrick; Oct 30, 2012 at 08:05 PM.
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I'm not an expert or mechanical engineer, but if the top of airbox is uncoupled from the rest of the system there is an decrease in the amount of restriction the intake system experiences and thus more air enters the system than normal. I think too much air is actually getting past the maf without being metered properly causing too little fuel to be added. This is the only thing that makes sense to me given the conditions I experienced. Again without actual tests and data beyond high egt's to support my theory, its just all conjecture.
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Could you or EQ post the map that was originally tuned to your car?
And you said that running it lean caused a crack in a ring on one of your cylinders... so did you not remove/replace any pistons/rings/machine the cylinder at all? Just went with a bigger turbo and ewg with a new tune?
Did EQ say anything about that?
And you said that running it lean caused a crack in a ring on one of your cylinders... so did you not remove/replace any pistons/rings/machine the cylinder at all? Just went with a bigger turbo and ewg with a new tune?
Did EQ say anything about that?
Well its a long story but the short of it is, if you want your subaru tuned right go to Ed.
About a year back I had an intake issue. My stock box broke because of the K&N panel filter not fitting right causing lean conditions and cracking a ring in one of my cylinders (confirmed by a leak down test done by EQ at my 60K
)...
I got tired of fixing my air box and worrying about damaging my motor further because of that stupid air box. So I needed a new solution, upgrade the air intake to an aftermarket cai, but I would need a retune.
Kinda waste to retune the car for just a cai, so I took the next step an picked up a vf48 and tmic from an 2010 sti and 65mm aps cai. Had EQ Tuning do the install and got to go road tuning with Ed again just after sunset, flying down the country roads with no headlights because the fuse went...
Unfortunately Ed wasn't able to get the full potential out of the new mods because of a boost creep issue probably due to increased flow. So it was either live with boost creep (really bad for the motor with a lead foot) , get a new down pipe that might not solve the problem or find an ewg setup. Of course I went with the with an ewg.
I thought I'd shop around an find a good set up, read a bunch of threads and reviews and decided on IAG Performance's EWG 38mm TiAl V-band set up which I thought would work great. I also had Ed's crew fab up a high flow cross pipe and port the exhaust manifolds.
On install day Ed pulled out the uppipe and laughed, commenting that it looked like some of the junk that came on the no-name brand aftermarket headers. When Ed showed me EQ's slick uppipe I immediately saw the difference. The IAG uppipe was about 2" in diameter with a reducer sleeve and some weird overlaps on the flanges. Although the quality of the welds are good and the fitment was ok, it looked liked it was designed by someone who had no idea what an uppipe was for. I jumped at the chance to own EQ's uppipe when Ed suggested it.
Moral of the story: Have Ed just do everything right.
Nash as always did an amazing job removing and installing the components (with me getting in the way).
Kelly did an awesome job creating a custom dump tube and welding the waste gate shut (yup, no going back!!!)
Once everything was buttoned back up, it was Ed's turn on the dyno. He asked me what I was looking for and knew how to deliver. It was something else to see and hear my engine roar on the dyno and the waste gate scream at 10 psi all the way to 6800 rpm. Not as much fun as the back road tuning but just as exciting.
When all was said and done with low compression on one cylinder:
279 whp @ 5.8k and 304 wtq @ 3.85k at 18.5 psi
Mods:
2010 vf 48 with tmic
EQ ported exhaust manifolds
EQ high flow cross pipe
EQ uppipe with TiAl MVS 38mm EWG and EQ custom dumptube
Crucial Racing Shorty Downpipe and race pipe
HKS Carbon-Ti Catback
APS 65mm CAI with Amsoil Filter
Perrin Turbo Inlet and Afta MAF
EQ Smog pump delete
255lpg fuel pump
Stock injectors
Thanks again to everyone at EQ Tuning: Ed, Sonya, Brendan, Nash, Kelly and Dallas for providing excellent customer service, parts and tuning. I'll be back when it's time for a new motor (hopefully not too soon!).
Sorry for the crappy cell pics...
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...1/IMG_0140.jpg ">
EQ Tuning WRX Cross Pipe
[IMG]http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...1/IMG_0142.jpg [/IMG ]
EQ Tuning (right) vs IAG Up Pipe (left)
[IMG]http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...1/IMG_0145.jpg [/IMG ]
Before porting...
[IMG]http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n155/bbrobbie21/IMG_0146.jpg[/IMG ]
...after porting!
[IMG]http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n155/bbrobbie21/IMG_0150.jpg[/IMG ]
Welded waste gate, TiAl EWG and EQ Tuning custom dumptube
[IMG]http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n155/bbrobbie21/IMG_0155.jpg[/IMG ]
On the dyno
About a year back I had an intake issue. My stock box broke because of the K&N panel filter not fitting right causing lean conditions and cracking a ring in one of my cylinders (confirmed by a leak down test done by EQ at my 60K
)...I got tired of fixing my air box and worrying about damaging my motor further because of that stupid air box. So I needed a new solution, upgrade the air intake to an aftermarket cai, but I would need a retune.
Kinda waste to retune the car for just a cai, so I took the next step an picked up a vf48 and tmic from an 2010 sti and 65mm aps cai. Had EQ Tuning do the install and got to go road tuning with Ed again just after sunset, flying down the country roads with no headlights because the fuse went...
Unfortunately Ed wasn't able to get the full potential out of the new mods because of a boost creep issue probably due to increased flow. So it was either live with boost creep (really bad for the motor with a lead foot) , get a new down pipe that might not solve the problem or find an ewg setup. Of course I went with the with an ewg.
I thought I'd shop around an find a good set up, read a bunch of threads and reviews and decided on IAG Performance's EWG 38mm TiAl V-band set up which I thought would work great. I also had Ed's crew fab up a high flow cross pipe and port the exhaust manifolds.
On install day Ed pulled out the uppipe and laughed, commenting that it looked like some of the junk that came on the no-name brand aftermarket headers. When Ed showed me EQ's slick uppipe I immediately saw the difference. The IAG uppipe was about 2" in diameter with a reducer sleeve and some weird overlaps on the flanges. Although the quality of the welds are good and the fitment was ok, it looked liked it was designed by someone who had no idea what an uppipe was for. I jumped at the chance to own EQ's uppipe when Ed suggested it.
Moral of the story: Have Ed just do everything right.
Nash as always did an amazing job removing and installing the components (with me getting in the way).
Kelly did an awesome job creating a custom dump tube and welding the waste gate shut (yup, no going back!!!)
Once everything was buttoned back up, it was Ed's turn on the dyno. He asked me what I was looking for and knew how to deliver. It was something else to see and hear my engine roar on the dyno and the waste gate scream at 10 psi all the way to 6800 rpm. Not as much fun as the back road tuning but just as exciting.
When all was said and done with low compression on one cylinder:
279 whp @ 5.8k and 304 wtq @ 3.85k at 18.5 psi
Mods:
2010 vf 48 with tmic
EQ ported exhaust manifolds
EQ high flow cross pipe
EQ uppipe with TiAl MVS 38mm EWG and EQ custom dumptube
Crucial Racing Shorty Downpipe and race pipe
HKS Carbon-Ti Catback
APS 65mm CAI with Amsoil Filter
Perrin Turbo Inlet and Afta MAF
EQ Smog pump delete
255lpg fuel pump
Stock injectors
Thanks again to everyone at EQ Tuning: Ed, Sonya, Brendan, Nash, Kelly and Dallas for providing excellent customer service, parts and tuning. I'll be back when it's time for a new motor (hopefully not too soon!).
Sorry for the crappy cell pics...
EQ Tuning WRX Cross Pipe
[IMG]http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...1/IMG_0142.jpg [/IMG ]
EQ Tuning (right) vs IAG Up Pipe (left)
[IMG]http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...1/IMG_0145.jpg [/IMG ]
Before porting...
[IMG]http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n155/bbrobbie21/IMG_0146.jpg[/IMG ]
...after porting!
[IMG]http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n155/bbrobbie21/IMG_0150.jpg[/IMG ]
Welded waste gate, TiAl EWG and EQ Tuning custom dumptube
[IMG]http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n155/bbrobbie21/IMG_0155.jpg[/IMG ]
On the dyno
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Watch out Bobby, it's the FW inquisition! 
Did any of you notice the dates on this thread? Talk about back from the dead!
So let's see. Bobby's car was tuned and rubbing great for about 30k miles. Then I believe he started having issues with drivability, idle, and some hesitations. He eventually started looking for causes and found the cracked intake box where the top of the box had separated from the bottom. If you guys think this will not throw off the A/F, give it a try yourself. The MAF is very sensitive and a change in airflow patter like that will throw it off. Even different air filters can throw it off some. So after finding that issue, I believe Bobby made a temporary fix that solved the tune issues for the meantime.
After this Bobby noticed some oil consumption. So when he came in for a 60k service, we also did a compression and leakdown test and found that at that point in time there was excessive leakage on the #4 cylinder signaling a small crack developing in the ringland. It was still on the small side, so Bobby decided to ride it out until it gets worse before building the engine. He also wanted to change the intake at this point to get rid of the temporary fix he put in place. So we installed the intake and the EWG UP at this point and put a mild tune on the car to get the engine to last as long as possible so Bobby could save up and plan for a build. That goal was achieved as the engine continued to run well, although burning some oil of course, until Bobby was ready for a build. He brought it in, we verfied the cracked ringland, built him a nice block and he's been running it ever since.
So that's the story. Considering the timing of the events and the symptoms, we made the hypothesis that the air box issue greatly contributed to the cracked ringland. Of course something else could have contributed to the ringland failure, but this was the most obvious cause.
Make sense? Has the inquisition been satisfied?
BTW, this all happened a few years ago, so I'm trying to recall this as accurately as possible. I don't claim the details to be 100% accurate just as close as I can remember. Bobby can feel free to correct me or fill in anything I may have missed.
Thanks
-- Ed
Did any of you notice the dates on this thread? Talk about back from the dead!
So let's see. Bobby's car was tuned and rubbing great for about 30k miles. Then I believe he started having issues with drivability, idle, and some hesitations. He eventually started looking for causes and found the cracked intake box where the top of the box had separated from the bottom. If you guys think this will not throw off the A/F, give it a try yourself. The MAF is very sensitive and a change in airflow patter like that will throw it off. Even different air filters can throw it off some. So after finding that issue, I believe Bobby made a temporary fix that solved the tune issues for the meantime.
After this Bobby noticed some oil consumption. So when he came in for a 60k service, we also did a compression and leakdown test and found that at that point in time there was excessive leakage on the #4 cylinder signaling a small crack developing in the ringland. It was still on the small side, so Bobby decided to ride it out until it gets worse before building the engine. He also wanted to change the intake at this point to get rid of the temporary fix he put in place. So we installed the intake and the EWG UP at this point and put a mild tune on the car to get the engine to last as long as possible so Bobby could save up and plan for a build. That goal was achieved as the engine continued to run well, although burning some oil of course, until Bobby was ready for a build. He brought it in, we verfied the cracked ringland, built him a nice block and he's been running it ever since.
So that's the story. Considering the timing of the events and the symptoms, we made the hypothesis that the air box issue greatly contributed to the cracked ringland. Of course something else could have contributed to the ringland failure, but this was the most obvious cause.
Make sense? Has the inquisition been satisfied?
BTW, this all happened a few years ago, so I'm trying to recall this as accurately as possible. I don't claim the details to be 100% accurate just as close as I can remember. Bobby can feel free to correct me or fill in anything I may have missed.
Thanks
-- Ed
Last edited by EQ Tuning; Oct 31, 2012 at 09:23 AM.
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It was an unofficial diagnosis by myself and EQ Tuning. The failure of the air box was the only thing wrong with the motor that might have lead to this situation.
Since a protune is based on a specific set of components (exhaust, intake, turbo, etc) if the air flow is changed through the top of the airbox coming off allowing a differential in intake volume, this could possibly cause too lean conditions.
Although the ill fitting filter was not the direct cause of the lean conditions, it most likely lead to the failure of the mounting tabs that kept the top half secured to the bottom half of the air box.
Later, when I had EQ pull the motor, the rings on #4 were cracked. Everything else (besides the stupid smog pump that fails on 06/07's resulting in a few bent exhaust valves) was mechanically fine/in spec.
Since a protune is based on a specific set of components (exhaust, intake, turbo, etc) if the air flow is changed through the top of the airbox coming off allowing a differential in intake volume, this could possibly cause too lean conditions.
Although the ill fitting filter was not the direct cause of the lean conditions, it most likely lead to the failure of the mounting tabs that kept the top half secured to the bottom half of the air box.
Later, when I had EQ pull the motor, the rings on #4 were cracked. Everything else (besides the stupid smog pump that fails on 06/07's resulting in a few bent exhaust valves) was mechanically fine/in spec.
I assume you had a Check Engine Light indicating the lean condition?
A lean condition will affect all four cylinders; numerous engine tear downs over 20 yrs has shown that if one cylinder has failed, it is something restricted to that one cylinder.
We've pulled apart many motors that have had all 4 pistons crack due to detonation/high cylinder pressures and/or lean-induced detonation.
The valves were bent? Maybe burned or pitted?
I though so too, but it affects how air goes into the turbo. Why else would you need a tune if you change intake styles?
I'm not an expert or mechanical engineer, but if the top of airbox is uncoupled from the rest of the system there is an decrease in the amount of restriction the intake system experiences and thus more air enters the system than normal. I think too much air is actually getting past the maf without being metered properly causing too little fuel to be added. This is the only thing that makes sense to me given the conditions I experienced. Again without actual tests and data beyond high egt's to support my theory, its just all conjecture.
I'm not an expert or mechanical engineer, but if the top of airbox is uncoupled from the rest of the system there is an decrease in the amount of restriction the intake system experiences and thus more air enters the system than normal. I think too much air is actually getting past the maf without being metered properly causing too little fuel to be added. This is the only thing that makes sense to me given the conditions I experienced. Again without actual tests and data beyond high egt's to support my theory, its just all conjecture.
You're correct about the filter being a restriction to air flow.
K&N air filters offer much less restriction compared to paper filters, so even if a car is tuned with a K&N and the filter was removed or otherwise bypassed, the increase in airflow is well within the sensor's ability.
I'm basing this on your setup; other's results may vary.
Don't take my word for it, call K&N and ask them.
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Cracked ringlands are a result of detonation and a lean condition can cause detonation. The #4 cylinder is usually the most sensitive to a lean condition and is usually the one that detonates first. If the tune was more agressive it could have taken out the other cylinders as well but instead only #4, the lowest common denominator, saw damage from the lean condition and resulting det.
If you really think removing the filter will not throw off WOT a/f, try it for yourself. Use a K&N, set a consistent a/f curve at WOT, do a couple runs, remove it, and do a couple more runs. You will see a measured a/f swing of at least .5-.7 points.
-- Ed
If you really think removing the filter will not throw off WOT a/f, try it for yourself. Use a K&N, set a consistent a/f curve at WOT, do a couple runs, remove it, and do a couple more runs. You will see a measured a/f swing of at least .5-.7 points.
-- Ed
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Car Info: 2007 Impreza WRX Limited Bugeye Conversion
It been a little over a year since the new motor and the subie is running great! Great power and torque for daily driving. Already almost at 90k on the chassis and 10k on the new motor. I'll be in touch soon about a tune up.
Yeah. Definitely a dig from the past. Think it started with someone spamming the original thread....
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