Salty

iTrader: (14)

I was listening to the Doug Banks Morning Show a couple days ago as it caught my attention when I changed the stations.

The cast was having a discussion based on Affirmative Action and the so called "struggle". I'm not a racist in the slightest but am I missing something here?

I know a handful of sucessful African Americans and other minorities (Hispanic, Asian etc) that haven't been a victim of this dreaded disease, curse or whatever you call it these days. Instead, they decided to put in their fair share of hard work and earn their position(s). They didn't complain or pull the race card when someone more qualified got the job. They carried on in their pursuit instead of falling victim to this mythical "struggle"

I know I may sound a bit like a biggot when I dicuss this topic but i've had this very same discussion with minority friends and other people of certain minorities i didn't know so well. Nonetheless, the discussion was civil in nature eventhough I never got a straight answer from those I didn't know. My said minority friends say it's a "cop-out" OR "scapegoat" for laziness and I happen to agree with them for the most part.

So when does this struggle end OR has it already? Last time I checked we have a TON of sucessful minorites in our country. From the Cash Money Millionaires with their "ICE" to Oprah Winfrey, Judge Joe Brown, Dave Chappelle, Shaq, Tiger Woods and Colin Powell. Contrary to what you've heard, Colin Powell is black. Which brings me to my last point... why do vicitims of "the struggle" automatically single out the "more established" individuals of the same race as "white" OR coin them as "selling-out to whitey"

Discuss your views on this but try and keep it civil in nature, please. I'm very open-minded in these types of debates and want your opinion. Afterall, this forum was intended for debates of this nature. If this thread takes a wrong turn and becomes racist and hurtful then it goes bye, bye.

dorifto88

iTrader: (8)

forgive me if i go a tad off topic.. but here is my stance on race as an issue of differences...

there are always whats the word... inherit positions people have on other people, like "all black people are X" and "all chinese people have Y bodytpe"
while i firmly believe there are few "physical distinctions", i beleive these differences are the product of nature and nurture, that is, the surroundings and whatnot (ie its NOT necc. or logical for farmers in the philippines to be like 6'5)
that being said, i also firmly believe the idea that any "race" (i put race in " " because i think its an arbitrary idea) has a larger brain capacity than others is just false. fwiw asians do have larger brains in volume, but this doesnt have anythign to do with actual intelligence.
told you i was going off topic.
i dont think affirmtive action is necessary, there shouldnt be quota systems for anything in life, there are no SIGNIFICANT physical and mental differences between people
but, although you do bring up good "succesful" black folks, try and think of a name of a rich chinese, korean, (lets skip japanese), vietnamese, or Philippino businessman OR woman? prettty hard, huh? ask yourself, why are most of the corporate level, high positions almost always held by older white men?
interview processes (whether for jobs, or school) should not have race as a factor, nor should the color of skiin be a factor.

told you, off topic.

dorifto88

iTrader: (8)

dude tiger woods aint asian, the white folk claimed him as their own, duh lol


edit
in terms of the 2nd paragrah i quoterd...
i guess, the victims are "hatars"
or...

the "victims" would no longer be victims if the population pointed out one sucessul person from their "race". a little wordy, i know. an example...

PURLEY AN EXAMPLE!
all black people dislike colin powell and call him a sell out
why do all black peopel call him a sell out?
because this disproves the theory that all "black folk" cant suceed in life, colin powell actually suceeding disproves their stance as them as a victim of society, making them unable to suceed.


also, fwiw...
wouldnt it suck if i were black and someone came up to me and said
"whats wrong with you? why cant you succeed? are you just a retarded black man or something? colin powell was able to suceed, why cant you?"

just because one man (powell, chapelle, whatever) is able to suceed doesnt mean we all can.
there are societal forces beyound our control holding us down << what i firmly believe.


that being said, let me link this to my 1st response about afirmitive actiion.

getting a job or getting ito college should not involve "race", or any other arbitrary idea, nor should getting x job or into y college involve the sociioeconomic status of individucals

Salty

iTrader: (14)

But I don't hear music lyrics from John Mayor, Britney Spears or Madonna on how they're suppressed by the woes of an ethnically diverse society. I own a large number of rap and hip hop albums and it always makes the hair on my neck stand when I hear common lyrics on how the "white collared white man" keeps the "black man down"

Likewise, I never hear how white people are in the "struggle" from other white people over the airways. Meanwhile, some black, brown, red or yellow DJ or public speaker of the same calibre is spewing melarky regarding his/her "so called struggle"...this very same person is probably earning a $150,000+++ salary.

Don't act like i'm profiling either... If you can legitimately provide more evidence that non-minority individuals complain more then any other ethnic background combined then I'm all ears.

The main contibutors against the civil rights movement are well into their 50's and beyond. Many of these people are no longer in the public eye and don't even have the power to "arm-chair quarterback" anything. On top of this, most individuals of the last 3 generations (Baby Boomers, Generation "X" and Milleniums) were raised on a strong foundation of equality. Strict measures are taken for those that violate any civil right's law by penalties that reach the sky!

So where's this struggle at?

If you have a problem with this thread thus far PM me and i'll fix it for ya!

dorifto88

iTrader: (8)

ill try my best to respond.
being opressed is an image, of course people are going to make songs about stuff.
like, if i was "black" and i lived in east palo alto, or hell, if i lived off 47th street in south sac, lol id write lyrics about where i am from, what i see. or, i could write a song about some messed up scenerio, ie girls getting into prostitution who smoke rocks to take care of their 9 children.
its music, its lyrics, what it comes down to, its propoganda.

your point about people preaching about the struggle. like i said, name ONE asian man or woman sucessful business person.

minorities complain, white folk complain too!
white people are jealous of black folk cause the black folk got bigger *****, so the white folk throw the black folk into meagre janatorial jobs. white folk feel they are better than yellow people, and use them as a model minority. < VERY heavy layer of sarcasm haha

white folk ***** too, you cant say y'all white folk dont *****.
whtie folks are mad at mexicans because thjey think mexicans harm the economy.
white folk are mad at asians because we do the same work white folk do for cheaper (ever wonder why there are a lot of filippina nurses and middle eastern comp technicians)

google the name "Vincent Chen"

dorifto88

iTrader: (8)

ohh, for me
my "struggle" is trying to achieve as a buesinessman in a dominant white economy, but you wont see me rapping or singing about it though haha

Salty

iTrader: (14)

"Dominantly white economy", huh? Asian and Pacific Islanders have been in the top income bracket according to the U.S. Census for many years by an average of $10,000+

Here's the census table for 2002:



http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/in..._avg_race.html



And here's a list of the 100 most sucessful asian business men & women...

http://goldsea.com/Profiles/100/100.html

It was simple google away! Imagine if i kept searching.

Goodluck with your business endeavors, Mike. If you don't succeed don't blame "whitey", blame yourself.

Salty

iTrader: (14)

See above post

Irrelevant argument eventhough i know you're trying to be funny.

I never said they didn't... if it wasn't for cheap labor from illegal aliens err... sorry... "undocumented workers", then i honestly believe our economy would suffer.

However, I never hear the end of it from a lot of minority public figures. I've even listened to The Doug Banks Morning Show since then to get a better understanding and it's the same old thing in another form (besides affirmative action). It's even accepted in a lot of comedians stand-up comedy for crying out loud.

If a white person made a comment about the smell of an African American's fart then he/she would be coined a "racist" and they'd have the NAACP and Jesse Jackson at the door before you could say "wholy shi......".

dorifto88

iTrader: (8)

damn you eric
ill scan some real facts from an old textbook later tongiht
edit mini response before i go buy some groceries lol.

most of the population of the entire USA is mostly white folk, caucasion, right?
asians take up a small, yet significant portion, of the entire population.
only a smal perecnetage of the caucasion population really make it rich, or get paid bookoo bux, right? while a considerable portion of white folk arent livin it up.
i guess, i think a better comparision to compare asians and white people would be, the top 10% of white people vs the top 10% of asian people.
its a tall order, but try it out.
you cant deny that the 70% of poor white folk isnt dragging the total worth of white folk down

dorifto88

iTrader: (8)

good example.
the #1 richest asian, taken from (http://goldsea.com/Profiles/100/wangcharles.html)
Charles ****...called the
"Genghis ****, the software conqueror. Charles ****'s $4.8 billion-a-year Computer Associates -- with its awesome $25-billion market cap"

compare thhis dued with the richest white person, who is it, gates, the pres of oracle?
does it look like tehy make the same amount?

Salty

iTrader: (14)

Ok, now you're digging!

Last time i checked, $4.8 billion (with a "b") could easily buy a medium sized island complete with $500,000,000 hotel-sized mansion and 20 Enzo's in the garage with an individual supermodel for each car.

That's not exactly "roughing-it" OR moving from the east side like the Jefferson's.

Group B

iTrader: (3)

I am completely against Affirmative Action.

I feel that the best qualified candidate (subjectively and objectively) should always be the one chosen for a job/seat at a school/etc.

The U.C. system, now that A.A. has been banned, now selects more and more foreign students simply because they can charge them much more than California residents. This has been their workaround since A.A. was banned, but hey, these students typically have excellent grades, so why not let them in?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On a related note, I have observed that certain ethnic groups (particularly asian, middle-eastern, and sub-continental Indian) often take care of themselves by living and working within their own cultural communities, relying on cultural social and business connections, etc., through these well-developed networks.

I only hope for the true diversification of America, that those that are deeply embedded in these enclaves reach out to socialize and interact with people outside their cliques, and vice-versa.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Another aspect to analyze is the onset of the "Global Economy", which will continue to affect our economy by making proficiency in languages other than English more and more valuable to gaining employment, another advantage to these aforementioned ethnic groups.

I say to this: Shame on the America's public schools for not having the same strict foreign language proficiency requirements, that schools in Europe and other areas have.

In most European nations for example, students are required to learn 2-3 foreign languages.

When American companies outsource work to other countries, they are doing so because those foreign workers are willing to work for less money, not necessarily because these people are more qualified. They are willing to work as hard or harder for less money.

I hope I didn't just blow up this thread...

David

Salty

iTrader: (14)

I happen to agree with you on this one. In the military I took language classes, private correspondence classes and even in-house classes (professor from the university would come to the barracks during lunch) to learn foreign languages. I happen to believe the DLAB type courses in the military are the best around. You can enroll in a language class and learn a LOT in a 6month+ period... they drill your mind like putty until you're fluent enough to fly over and train foreign soldiers etc.

I'm even trying to teach myself Japanese just so i can communicate with my future kids... seeing how my fiancee's fluent and she's well versed in teaching languages.

Our school systems need to follow suit at a young age with any specific language and continue with that till they graduate highschool. It should be required like any other course they offer and it needs to be intense. No ***** footing around with outdated language books that resemble ghey comic books. They need to be able to apply the language and be comfortable with it just as most Europeans are exremely comfortable with english.

Salty

iTrader: (14)

Real facts? The U.S. Census is as good as it's going to get on this issue seeing how it's their job to cover all criteria based on socioeconomics etc.

Go ahead and post your info, source and be sure to post the copyright date of said "old facts" and author.

dub2w

It is things like this that keep me attached by an umbilical cord to good ol i-club...

This is an interesting debate. I actually see both sides of the coin here. Let me explain:

My gf is Chinese. Her parents came here in the 80s with nothing. Lived in a 1bd apt with 8+ people. Started a tofu factory which they are running to this day. They now own a home, and all of their children have gone to college. Chinese (and most other Asians) have a way of somehow getting to the top (not to generalize, but I have many Asian friends with similar stories).

The issue with blacks and Mexicans in the US, however, is different. Asians only experienced periods as the demarcated other... WWII is the most glaring example. But blacks and Mexicans (specifically blacks) have been relegated to the bottom rungs of the socio-economic ladder almost since the day they stepped (or were dragged) into the country. While I agree that people need to be held accountable for their own actions, we cant deny that there is still remnants of socialized racism.

A good book if you havent read it already: Race Matters by Cornel West. One of the things West brings up is nihilism in black America. Black kids arent nihilistic because they are genetically inferior, but rather because, in the ghetto, the chances of making it are slim.

There are other variables we should account for:
War on Drugs = draconian drug laws have had a devastating affect on young black men
Welfare = definitely needed for dire situations, but can lead to a dependence on an entity other than oneself

This is a tricky proposition for public policy advocates and urban planners. Hopefully we can continue to all do our part to bridge the gap between the haves and have-nots