The Real Abuse at Guantanamo
06-29-2005, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Salty
06-29-2005, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by MVWRX
I am well aware of where he stands politically. Are you suggesting he's not telling th truth because of bias?
For those of us that have been close or in the military know there's a way the military conducts itself for the most part. Training stops just for religious services. You could be a wicken or Satanist in a mostly God fearing conservative Army and everyone would stand for it.
If you disagree with the Colonel then is it because of your ignorance to how the military conducts itself? Or is it because you’d rather believe the terrorist and insurgent prisoners that hate everything America stands for?
If you're just trying to give us background on the author without creating a stir then please ignore the aformentioned. Although I seriously doubt it....
06-29-2005, 11:20 AM
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I wasn't really trying to make an issue of it, but I do think it's important to realize that the man who wrote the article has based his entire life on a career of conservative speaking, which in turn is based on his extensive military background. He has no pictures and no evidense other than his word. And it is valuable to realize that the prisoners are NOT the ones who brought the 'prisoner abuse' into the light, so I'm not pitting the word of this guy against the word of terrorists. I'm pitting the viewpoint of an ex-Colonol self-proclaimed-conservative-propagandist against anonymous (probably liberal) wistleblowers. I would be shocked to hear this guy speak a single bad word about anything to do with the US military. That's all.
06-29-2005, 12:06 PM
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Ok fine.
But do you (personally) think what the Colonel has written is too hard to believe? You have anti-American terrorist and insurgent prisoners being held against their will. What type of reaction would be more believable and acceptable in this case?
Given the fact not one person has died in Gitmo, who do you think wins the bigger man award? The untrained, anti-American insurgents/terrorists in a prison environment that would glady spit in an American's face given the opprotunity -or- the ones that are constantly being ridiculed and spotlighted by the msm and by members of society that are un-admittedly against the war?
Don't read this post in a defensive tone. I'm really asking your opinion here.
But do you (personally) think what the Colonel has written is too hard to believe? You have anti-American terrorist and insurgent prisoners being held against their will. What type of reaction would be more believable and acceptable in this case?
Given the fact not one person has died in Gitmo, who do you think wins the bigger man award? The untrained, anti-American insurgents/terrorists in a prison environment that would glady spit in an American's face given the opprotunity -or- the ones that are constantly being ridiculed and spotlighted by the msm and by members of society that are un-admittedly against the war?
Don't read this post in a defensive tone. I'm really asking your opinion here.
06-29-2005, 12:28 PM
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I do believe that the Col. saw the prisoners acting like asses, and I'm positive that they do so more often than any soldier acts inappropriatly. To me, though, that's to be expected. They are prisoners. And certainly I'm on the side of the guards and soldiers who are doing their duty over the suspected terrorists that are inside. But in many cases, we are acting in a way that I believe is un American (such as holding prisoners without telling them why or bringing any charges against them). I know we are not REQUIRED to do these things, but I thought that since we fight so vehemntly for these rights that we believe all humans should receive them. Along with this is the idea of trapping more flies with honey...if the Muslim community sees that we treat Muslim extreamests fairly in prison, then they are more likely to think that we are doing things in their best intrest as well as our own as opposed to thinking that the US is out to torture and slaughter Muslims in general (as the extreamists would have them believe).
Basically, I know that the guards haven't been as 'bad' as the prisoners, but that's true even in our prisons for US criminals. IMHO, the guards at all prisons run by the US or the US Military should be held to a perfect standard of conduct. Justifying a few guard slip-ups by saying the prisoners are d***s doesn't cut it for me.
Basically, I know that the guards haven't been as 'bad' as the prisoners, but that's true even in our prisons for US criminals. IMHO, the guards at all prisons run by the US or the US Military should be held to a perfect standard of conduct. Justifying a few guard slip-ups by saying the prisoners are d***s doesn't cut it for me.
06-29-2005, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by MVWRX
I do believe that the Col. saw the prisoners acting like asses, and I'm positive that they do so more often than any soldier acts inappropriatly. To me, though, that's to be expected. They are prisoners. And certainly I'm on the side of the guards and soldiers who are doing their duty over the suspected terrorists that are inside. But in many cases, we are acting in a way that I believe is un American (such as holding prisoners without telling them why or bringing any charges against them). I know we are not REQUIRED to do these things, but I thought that since we fight so vehemntly for these rights that we believe all humans should receive them. Along with this is the idea of trapping more flies with honey...if the Muslim community sees that we treat Muslim extreamests fairly in prison, then they are more likely to think that we are doing things in their best intrest as well as our own as opposed to thinking that the US is out to torture and slaughter Muslims in general (as the extreamists would have them believe).
Basically, I know that the guards haven't been as 'bad' as the prisoners, but that's true even in our prisons for US criminals. IMHO, the guards at all prisons run by the US or the US Military should be held to a perfect standard of conduct. Justifying a few guard slip-ups by saying the prisoners are d***s doesn't cut it for me.
Basically, I know that the guards haven't been as 'bad' as the prisoners, but that's true even in our prisons for US criminals. IMHO, the guards at all prisons run by the US or the US Military should be held to a perfect standard of conduct. Justifying a few guard slip-ups by saying the prisoners are d***s doesn't cut it for me.
First and foremost, neither the soldiers or the prisoners made light of an abuse case; a whistleblowing, anti-military, yellow journalist made light of it. Secondly and in reference to "holding prisoners without telling them why...." is a completely arbitrary statement in that the Geneva Conventions is far different than a civilian judiciary system. We can imprison any foriegn fighter who was committing or conspiring to commit acts in malice towards NATO troops and in the article it clearly defines that the MAJORITY of the prisoners were captured in combat (i.e. POW).
Surely the article can be viewed with a sceptical eye simply due to the background of its author. As Salty mentioned before though, you can rest assured that if a Colonel (granted his commission by the President) is not going to lie about anything in it. Is it possible that he left out possilbe infractions by American troops? Absolutely. The fact of the matter is that the troops are working with what they have as best they can and that prisoners will be forever unhappy with their circumstances.
06-29-2005, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Article
Yet these thugs are treated with an amazing degree of compassion: They are given ice cream treats and recreational time. They live in clean facilities, and receive a full Muslim religious package of Koran, prayer rug, beads, and prayer oils. An arrow in every cell points to Mecca. The call to prayer is played five times daily. They are not abused, hanged, tortured, beheaded, raped, mutilated or in any way treated the way that they once treated their own captives or now treat their guards.
Maybe I'm missing something.
My tax dollars are being spent to provide my enemy with material goods that my Supreme Court has ruled are unconstitutional for me to post in public places.
It seems to me that there has been more media attention devoted to the "poor" treatment GITMO prisoners receive than how our enemy treat theirs.
I know I'm a knuckle-draggin' Trogulite, but **** 'em.
Given the chace, anyone of these pig fockers would slit your throat.
06-29-2005, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Oaf
OK.
Maybe I'm missing something.
My tax dollars are being spent to provide my enemy with material goods that my Supreme Court has ruled are unconstitutional for me to post in public places.
It seems to me that there has been more media attention devoted to the "poor" treatment GITMO prisoners receive than how our enemy treat theirs.
I know I'm a knuckle-draggin' Trogulite, but **** 'em.
Given the chace, anyone of these pig fockers would slit your throat.
Maybe I'm missing something.
My tax dollars are being spent to provide my enemy with material goods that my Supreme Court has ruled are unconstitutional for me to post in public places.
It seems to me that there has been more media attention devoted to the "poor" treatment GITMO prisoners receive than how our enemy treat theirs.
I know I'm a knuckle-draggin' Trogulite, but **** 'em.
Given the chace, anyone of these pig fockers would slit your throat.
06-29-2005, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by 1reguL8NSTi
First and foremost, neither the soldiers or the prisoners made light of an abuse case; a whistleblowing, anti-military, yellow journalist made light of it.
Originally Posted by me
And it is valuable to realize that the prisoners are NOT the ones who brought the 'prisoner abuse' into the light, so I'm not pitting the word of this guy against the word of terrorists. I'm pitting the viewpoint of an ex-Colonol self-proclaimed-conservative-propagandist against anonymous (probably liberal) wistleblowers.
Originally Posted by 1reguL8NSTi
Secondly and in reference to "holding prisoners without telling them why...." is a completely arbitrary statement in that the Geneva Conventions is far different than a civilian judiciary system. We can imprison any foriegn fighter who was committing or conspiring to commit acts in malice towards NATO troops and in the article it clearly defines that the MAJORITY of the prisoners were captured in combat (i.e. POW).
Originally Posted by me
I know we are not REQUIRED to do these things (provide due process, etc), but I thought that since we fight so vehemntly for these rights that we believe all humans should receive them.
Way to refute my post by repeating what I posted.
06-29-2005, 05:46 PM
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Hahaha, no I didn't mean anything bad about the soldiers who are at GITMO. What I meant is that at this point in time we have two 'acounts' of what goes on there. One is from the 'yellow press' and is almost definatly with a liberal lean. The other is from this ex-Colonel and is almost definatly with a conservative lean.
Either way, my personal statement was that regardless of what's going on there, all guards at all prisons in the US (or controlled by the US) should be held to a standard of perfection with respect to their treatment of prisoners, also regardless of what is required by international law and also regardless of how the prisoners are acting. That way our guards won't be run through the media ringer, there won't be any inciting of riots or terrorism, and we can all be proud that we hold our selves to higher standards than the countries/regimes we oppose because it's the right thing to do and not just because some conventions tell us we should. Oaf points out that we hear more about our mistreating of prisoners than about our enemies mistreating prisoners. Holding our guards to a perfect standard (absolutely no mistreatment of any prisoner at any time, regardless of an individual prisoners bad behavior) would also shift the attention from the prisoners we keep to the attrocities being commited by our enemies.
Not to mention that we are fighting oversees to ensure our freedoms and rights, one of which is the right to due process. If we deny these prisoners the very rights we are fighting for, even if they deserve no rights at all, we are telling the world and ourselves that we think some people are not worth the freedoms and rights this country offers. Not very American if you ask me.
Either way, my personal statement was that regardless of what's going on there, all guards at all prisons in the US (or controlled by the US) should be held to a standard of perfection with respect to their treatment of prisoners, also regardless of what is required by international law and also regardless of how the prisoners are acting. That way our guards won't be run through the media ringer, there won't be any inciting of riots or terrorism, and we can all be proud that we hold our selves to higher standards than the countries/regimes we oppose because it's the right thing to do and not just because some conventions tell us we should. Oaf points out that we hear more about our mistreating of prisoners than about our enemies mistreating prisoners. Holding our guards to a perfect standard (absolutely no mistreatment of any prisoner at any time, regardless of an individual prisoners bad behavior) would also shift the attention from the prisoners we keep to the attrocities being commited by our enemies.
Not to mention that we are fighting oversees to ensure our freedoms and rights, one of which is the right to due process. If we deny these prisoners the very rights we are fighting for, even if they deserve no rights at all, we are telling the world and ourselves that we think some people are not worth the freedoms and rights this country offers. Not very American if you ask me.
Last edited by MVWRX; 06-29-2005 at 05:56 PM.
06-29-2005, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MVWRX
Not to mention that we are fighting oversees to ensure our freedoms and rights, one of which is the right to due process. If we deny these prisoners the very rights we are fighting for, even if they deserve no rights at all, we are telling the world and ourselves that we think some people are not worth the freedoms and rights this country offers. Not very American if you ask me.
You said so yourself that people are fallible in another thread. So what if we wrongfully release another al Zarqawi into the woodwork? There'd be more of a chance of this happening while the conflict is still hot and the Iraqi Govt. is still on the rocks. Instead, you go through the proper measures after the dust has settled.
It may be a questionable situation but the fact of the matter is these are not citizens, they're enemy combatants. American does not belong in the same sentence with insurgent or terrorist unless is begins in "anti."
Originally Posted by Oaf
OK.
Maybe I'm missing something.
My tax dollars are being spent to provide my enemy with material goods that my Supreme Court has ruled are unconstitutional for me to post in public places.
It seems to me that there has been more media attention devoted to the "poor" treatment GITMO prisoners receive than how our enemy treat theirs.
I know I'm a knuckle-draggin' Trogulite, but **** 'em.
Given the chance, anyone of these pig fockers would slit your throat.
Maybe I'm missing something.
My tax dollars are being spent to provide my enemy with material goods that my Supreme Court has ruled are unconstitutional for me to post in public places.
It seems to me that there has been more media attention devoted to the "poor" treatment GITMO prisoners receive than how our enemy treat theirs.
I know I'm a knuckle-draggin' Trogulite, but **** 'em.
Given the chance, anyone of these pig fockers would slit your throat.
Really puts privileges and other U.S. measures into perspective, huh?
06-29-2005, 09:58 PM
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I understand your point of holding our troops to a higher standard than our enemies hold themselves to.
The overall opinion portrayed by US media of the treatment of suspected bad guys is poor to say the least.
The media, which overall leans to the Left, has delivered one negative story after another with this war.
Bush lied.
Our soldiers are flushing books down toilets.
Children are dying.
And on and on and on......
The media didn't think twice about showing how Peppermint Pattie leashed her muslim "dogs".
24/7, nothing but Abu Graib(sp) torture stories.
Then there's the daily body count, showing each US troop that was killed that day.
The media tells us sheeple that first 1000, then 1500, and now nearly 2000 KIA US troops is "atrocious".
The networks nearly came in their pants when 4 of our contractors were killed, burned, and hung from a bridge in a ****hole called Falluja.
Since the first Marine stepped into Iraq, how many beheadings have been broadcast, ad naseum, during primetime news?
None.
How many suicide bombings have we been shown?
None.
Does the Colonel have a slant?
Yes, but it's the correct slant.
The overall opinion portrayed by US media of the treatment of suspected bad guys is poor to say the least.
The media, which overall leans to the Left, has delivered one negative story after another with this war.
Bush lied.
Our soldiers are flushing books down toilets.
Children are dying.
And on and on and on......
The media didn't think twice about showing how Peppermint Pattie leashed her muslim "dogs".
24/7, nothing but Abu Graib(sp) torture stories.
Then there's the daily body count, showing each US troop that was killed that day.
The media tells us sheeple that first 1000, then 1500, and now nearly 2000 KIA US troops is "atrocious".
The networks nearly came in their pants when 4 of our contractors were killed, burned, and hung from a bridge in a ****hole called Falluja.
Since the first Marine stepped into Iraq, how many beheadings have been broadcast, ad naseum, during primetime news?
None.
How many suicide bombings have we been shown?
None.
Does the Colonel have a slant?
Yes, but it's the correct slant.