i love my tax breaks. my mortgage saves me more in taxes than the stimulus check. my wife's tuition saves a bunch. my dependent deduction and credit save a bunch. my pre-tax deductions save a bunch.

and 3 million unemployed auto workers, supplier workers, salesmen, mechanics, etc... will undo any progress the stimulus checks made. 3 million more people collecting unemployement / welfare / food stamps / other forms of government assistance. more burden on the rest of us.

where is it documented that it's only a 1 year fix? maybe it's only a 3 month fix, it could be a lifetime fix, it could do nothing at all. Chrysler got government assistance in the 70's, thats it. they paid their loan (not bail-out) back, ahead of schedule, with interest.

they ARE making smaller cars, better cars, more efficient cars. the auto industry plans about 5 to 7 years in advance. what's in the market now was planned back when gas was cheap and people weren't worried about a bad economy. how DARE they provide the consumers what they wanted...



so here's a thought... nobody likes outsourcing right? well, that's what we've all been doing these last years. my i've only bought japenese cars in my adult life, i've been outsourcing my car production. we've all been doing it. so who was left buying GM / Chevy / Ford products? truck buyers. so what did they build? trucks, lots of em. bastards.

maybe our government should have done what other foreign governments have been doing for ages... tax the **** out of foreign autos.

 

Why did consumers want big cars? Are big cars really safer, are they more prestigious, or is it just what the media guided by the big 3 tells us we need? You know it seems to me that you can make a profit and still make a decent product. I just think they're greedy. I know what a revelation. They tell us what we want using the media. We want SUV's. Why? Well because the big three makes a bigger profit on them. A better idea would be to better train our drivers so we don't need to drive tanks, but where's the profit in that. Have you guys looked around. American drivers are a joke really. OK I'm getting off topic. Now I have no problem with making a profit, but not at the cost of the company.

Anyway it seems to me this all started back in the 70's. Fuel got tight and better made higher MPG imports started to trickle into the market. Well there's no doubt the big three felt threatened. They went so far as to lobby government officials to put tariffs on those imports and spent millions launching a huge ad campaign. Hmm it seems the one thing they didn't do was really try to attack the real problem and build a better product. The Japanese/ Germans took some initiative and started to build factories here to produce there product. Screwing up the big 3 plan. Oh well. What's capitalism without a little healthy competition.



You have a point here, but you know Detroit automakers did still produce cars and you know even if they were more expensive than their Japanese counterparts I think people still would've bought them, but add to that the fact that the domestic car quality doesn't measure up and it's no contest. I mean come on.

I know this is not what your trying to say, but it sounds like the only way the big 3 can sell a product is if their only competition is each other.

That's the first thing that the big 3 tried.




You know I don't have a problem giving the Big Three money to be competitive, but like all of you I want them to be held accountable. I want change. I want a working and not a failing business for my $83. I mean the only reason we all have this contempt is because we feel that they have such terrible ethics. I mean taking a your private jet to a hearing to ask for money...WTF.

It dawns on me that the real beginning of the end for the Big 3 was the internet. With true information about their products now so easily available the American consumer became better informed and was no longer solely at the mercy of their marketing ads.

In truth I think we just got collectively smarter about our purchases. I mean hell I don't buy anything now without extensive research from cars to universal remotes.

 

1) where is the evidence that so many people would lose their jobs? we dont know how deep this will go, only how deep it may go. just like we dont know how long $25bil will last the big 3. ive read that it will be enough for all 3 to run throgh 09. even if they get it, to truly last them they will have to cut jobs massively and close many more plants.

2) they arent making the cars we should be making. if they plan that far in advance, then it makes sense they are failing cause its evident they didnt plan very well, cause they sure are hurting. they are still pushhing trucks, still producing them. this year is the first year im seeing them closing truck and suv plants and retooling a few others. thats tells me they planned to still make big cars several years ago, and are stuggling to adapt. 7 years ago gas prices were roughly double what they were in 99, thats a pretty good sign of things to come. also, toyota is a good example, still making plants here in the us, and not cutting massive jobs... not closing plants. making new plants. they planned well, deversified their production. they can do it here, why cant we??

outsourcing? nisssan, toyota, and subaru have plants here, probably others. every person whos bought a legacy or outback since 2001 has had it made here in the us. imprezas and foresters are still made in gunma. besides, we already have trade tarriffs and things against forgien companies. maybe thats why they built plants here. not sure. still doing it better than we are.

btw, saw tonight on ktvu that the everage union worker makes $73/hr... amazing. managment is probably making 50x that.

oh, and why did you buy japanese cars in your adult life? we own 3 american cars right now at home, and all are the worst of the bunch. 2 are german, 2 are japanese. soon 2 of those american ones will be gone, with just my fathers chevy truck left. (contractor). we wont be buying american, just not worth it.

and where are the deals? so many cars on the lots, so many at the ports and distribution lots. not really seeing rock bottom deals.

and i was hoping to buy a truck next year, been waiting for the baby diesel motors in the 1500s, probably not gonna happen now it looks like. lots of guys looking for fuel effecient car haulers. too bad, toyota will probably step in in some years.

 

It is all estimates until it happens. It would be no different than any other industry if it were in this predicament. The best I have found is the Center for Automotive research study done in early November. http://www.cargroup.org/documents/FI...act_3__001.pdf

They have already made very substantial cuts that will take effect in 2009-2010. GM has cut down on its workforce by 45% since 2001. With 252,000 employees worldwide, GM ranks fifth overall behind Volkswagen (373,400 employees,) Renault/Nissan (316,121 employees,) Toyota (316,121 employees) and Daimler (272,382 employees). Yet GM sold more vehicles worldwide last year than any other automaker. The US auto industry spends more money on R&D than any other automotive industry in the world – more than $12 billion annually.

The average UAW worker made $27 /hr last year. Don't believe everything you hear in the media.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/1...389/733/663386

What you are seeing in that report is wage plus benefits, but since the restructuring that happened with the UAW and healthcare last year I guarantee you that GM, Ford and Chrysler do not pay 40+ bucks/hr for benefits.

And can we just stop with the American cars are not as well made BS? For the last 5 years Honda, GM and Toyota have been trading the top spot in quality back and forth..

I have a WRX and have had a brand new GMC Sierra truck for the last 1.5 years and I can tell you that I haven't had any issues with the truck. It gets about 5 - 7 less MPG than my Subaru but I don't have to put premium in it so it is fairly close as far as that goes and it is a great vehicle. It gets the best MPG of any full size truck (Sans a diesel of course)

 

$27 is still a lot of money to pay for a non-skilled worker. I'd like to know how much the guys at the NUMI plant make, I bet it's less than $27/hr and I'm sure the cost of living in Flint, MI isn't anything compared to Fremont, CA.

 

You're probably right. Pretty sad, since cost of living out there is amazing low vs here.

$73 with benefits is also something that one can't really dismiss. That's substantial!

 

Very true statement; $27/hour is roughly $54,000/year before benefits assuming that is a correct figure. To put things in perspective; that was a starting salary for top level/prestigious public accounting and advisory firms when I was graduating couple years ago and those positions required 4-5 year degrees. I do not know how much training those non-skilled/union jobs require, but I highly doubt it is 4 years worth. I decided to go the college route, so that's what I can relate to...but whatever the case is, I think effort-to-compensation ratio is a bit out of wack with union pay.

And, again, let's not forget the Job Bank @ GM fund; where union workers get almost their full salary and benefits if they are laid off while they sit around waiting for a replacement job. So, even if they are laid off with the current crisis...SURPRISE...they will be the LAST people to feel its effects unless that fund gets frozen as part of restructuring.