medicSTi

iTrader: (22)

I keep hearing all this talk on the news about GM and Ford claiming that they need to be bailed out. Seriously... wtf?!

If your company bites the dust, it bites the dust. The taxpayers and the federal government shouldn't be saving the companies that can't survive. It's only going to throw us into even more national debt and as it has already been demonstrated... they don't work!

Survival of the fittest, this is capitalism, not socialism. The government needs to back off and let the companies figure it out on their own.

And they're also saying that states (like CA) are asking for Bail Outs as well...

How does this crap really happen? How do politicians get away with this garbage?

Input please!!!

Superglue WRX

Nobody in the government really knows how to approach this issue. They see the country bleeding from the arteries and the knee jerk reaction is to throw money at it. What needs to happen is for us to stop the hand outs, sit down for weeks, or even months and settle on a long term policy fix.

Either way it happens, it's going to be rough. But the government needs to find a policy and stick to it.

medicSTi

iTrader: (22)

It would be so unfair to start bailing out big companies and you can't bail everyone out.

RussB

iTrader: (2)

companies like Ford and GM would have a huge trickle down effect if they were to go under. i don't think it would end well regardless of how this goes down.

Superglue WRX

I agree it's very unfair and fiscally irresponsible. But when you have the cornerstones of the economy simply collapsing, it puts the government in a very desperate position. If they let everything go down in flames, what would be the point of even having a government? If people are out of work and or homeless, and the government just stood by and watched it happen, what good are they?

The problem with this is that the economic collapse is it feeds on itself. It's a lot like the snow ball affect. If the government doesn't at least step in and put up some sort of barrier to slow it down, the harder it will be to recover from the damage. There really is not easy solution. These bailouts are like first aid responses until we get to the surgery room (a medic analogy, get it? ).

JArnaud

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, I agree, stop with the bailouts! Who are they trying to protect? Special interests? Shareholders? Employees of the company? How come you and I have to pay for companies who are no longer competitive? Maybe if companies like GM weren't getting owned in the hybrid business, things might be different. I know all car manufacturers are having difficulties right now, but you don't see Toyota, or even Subaru asking for handouts. On another note, I spoke with a Suby dealership today, and learned that Forester sales are up 150% over last year! At least in some regions they are anyways! Go Subaru! No hybrids, but still going strong!

joltdudeuc

iTrader: (6)

I agree. How does this happen? Consumerism, plain and simple. People living beyond their means. I know, I've done so for many years, now I have to work my way out of it. At least I'm young and have been working to correct my mistakes... Generations upon generations have been doing this in America now. Debt is a regular way of life, and this is no exception in business today.

The whole corporate structure is a ****ing time bomb.

BUT... John McCain said to Michigan in the primaries that he's gonna bring the jobs back Looks like he'll be signing on for a bail out and I'm sure Obama will be as well. Americans ***** and moan a cry about off shoring jobs, but when it comes to auto manufacturing, it simply doesn't apply. Toyota is building new plants in the us, and is still hiring. If they can do it here, than there is no excuse for the big 3. I blame unions, cause most auto workers today make good money, have great benefits and retire will crazy good pensions. It's breaking the companies banks.

I want to see them fail, but, I do feel bad that thousands would lose their jobs, and that will lead to slow downs in the parts and service industries as well.

Maybe nascar will go away, that would be ****ing awesome. But still, sucks for auto workers as a whole. But what did anyone expect? For so long they made poor cars and made huge money on large margins and pushed SUVs and trucks when gas was cheap. I don't want them to be bailed out, but, if "GM goes, so goes the country"

Superglue WRX

1) Unions are outdated and damage companies more than help workers.

2) It's my understanding that a lot of the foreign manufacturers who build in the US don't pay nearly as well as Ford, Dodge, and GM. That's one way they're able to get by.

3) As much as I feel we should let these companies fail, it would just devastate an already struggling economy. It's easy to just say you're willing to follow our sinking economic ship to the bottom, it's quite another to actually do so. If we were to let things lay, you will see business, jobs, and investments leave this country faster than a roach when the lights turn on. How far do we let it go when we say, "enough is enough"? How much will we pay and suffer to bring the economy back if we decide to ride it all the way down to the true bottom?

RussB

iTrader: (2)

it would not be thousands, it would be hundreds of thousands, and it wouldn't be just the automakers making cuts. their suppliers would have to cut back. those companies sub-suppliers would have to cut back.

look at GM as a pyramid, with them at the top. if they go under, every little company beneath them, and the layers get wider the further you go down the heirarchy, will be affected as well.


BTW - toyota employees are UAW as well. they're also hurting, but not on the level that the big three are. they didn't focus solely on large trucks and suv's, but they are feeling the effects as well.

sigma pi

iTrader: (6)

we did it in the 70s

gas guzzlers broke them

small efficient Japanese cars dominated

2008 same thing

Tizzo27

^^^ Pretty much spot on..

Big 3 Made **** products, though some are starting to get better..
Still your average ***/Euro car will kick the crap out of your average US car, for the money.
I'm Reminded of my wifes 06 Nissan Xterra. and my 05 WRX. Both get better mileage yet have more ponys than my old 00 Dodge Ram.
Sometimes I think the US's biggest problem is that we didn't get the carpet bombed/ nuked in the 40's. We have the same infrastructure we had in 1900, in some cases.

Unions humped the workers/ companies/ consumers-- Capitalism is about turning a profit.. (plain and simple, all parties benefit by turning out a good product at a competitive price.) When outside entities mess with the system by price fixing, (on the product or the labor side) someone loses in the long run..
Jobs are off shored because companies can't afford to pay union workers.

Our financial chickens are coming home to roost.

medicSTi

iTrader: (22)

I think at this point they don't need first aid, they need triage... and some of these companies need Black Tags

But I get what you mean and I understand that these companies effect millions of Americans, so I understand. I just don't like thinking that the best solution the US can come up with is to throw money at the problem.

Superglue WRX

^^^

This.

medicSTi

iTrader: (22)

Yeah, I've studied unions briefly and I've come to believe they do more harm than good.

Great employees that understand their job isn't their job, with no sense of entitlement, that go to work to bust *** and impress their employer ever day need no Union.

If they have a crappy boss that fires them when they work as said above... it's better for them to take the loss and find a better employer.

Unions keep the mediocre employeed and feeling entitled to "their" job.

SilverScoober02

This is coming from a Teamster so take it for what its worth. The UAW is a huge problem.....I know line workers that make 60k plus a year not including benefits and all they do is one task on the line over and over again. That no-training job should be worth 10-20 bucks an hour most....

The main problem for the big 3 is the UAW, IMHO. Toyota wanted to build a huge plant in Michigan to build the Camry stateside, they ended up putting up that plant in Kentucky because they wouldn't have to deal with the UAW's insane demands.

I've been to a huge Cadillac plant here in Hamtramck and you would not believe the things I have seen going on. I have seen a mezzanine that was sectioned off with black cardboard, and there was a PS2 and a big screen tv in place, with a few lazy boys and some bean bag chairs. Once I saw a guy in an Escalade on the line, sleeping in the front seat with it fully reclined as the truck went station to station, and the management at these places can't do anything about it because the union will support the workers no matter what bad they do.

They have had special undercover reports about it on the news in the past about workers going in, clocking in at 8 am and leaving to go to the bar at 10 am and never coming back to work and never clocking out. Getting paid for their entire shift while they are out drinking. It's amazing.

In the early days the Union was a very good thing. Fought for workers rights, setup safe workplace rules and basically was the only thing in the beginning that was looking out for the worker. Nowadays with the federal regulations, the union is almost not needed. I say almost because in our case it is.

We were non-union for many many years until about 15 years ago. Then the governing body of our institution decided that it did not want to give our employees a new contract, better wages, etc. They just were not going to deal with any of us at all, period. Benefits were declining, while their need for our production was going up and they didn't want to work with us to figure out the right course. They wouldn't even sit down to the table. So people around here organized and went out and got the nastiest union around and guess what, we have a new contract every three years, and while some of the benefits fluctuate they stay pretty constant.