Ultimate New-Age Suspension
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Ultimate New-Age Suspension
Don't know if anybody reads EVO, a British mag that I feel is probably the best car magazine in the world (and which absolutely LOVES Subies), but they recently pitched a 2004 WRX STi Type RA Spec C (red with gold wheels) against a 911 GT3 and BMW CSL and voted the Subie ahead of the Bimmer.
Well, they also just bumped the Lancer out of their pick for fast four-doors and rate this Spec C as better than their two favorite Imprezas of all time -- the P1 and the RB5. Meaning this is the first New-Ager to not only match the best of the GC8s in terms of handling, but eclipse them. And these guys know their stuff.
So can we find a way to get a parts list of the suspension bits we'd need to buy to bring a 2002-2004 WRX up to "Spec?" They say this 2004 Spec C/RA uses a front subframe that moves the front wheels an inch forward (for extra caster, WL style but more extreme?). Also would need PN for:
Anti-roll bars
Springs
Struts
Top mounts
Bushings
Steering rack
Strut braces (?)
Subframe
Anybody have an "in" to get such a parts list or a link on where to research this further? I know the aftermarket provides a million choices, but I've found you can rarely out-do the development of the factory's team -- especially when they switch their compromise inclinations to the sporting side....
Thanks!
pete
Well, they also just bumped the Lancer out of their pick for fast four-doors and rate this Spec C as better than their two favorite Imprezas of all time -- the P1 and the RB5. Meaning this is the first New-Ager to not only match the best of the GC8s in terms of handling, but eclipse them. And these guys know their stuff.
So can we find a way to get a parts list of the suspension bits we'd need to buy to bring a 2002-2004 WRX up to "Spec?" They say this 2004 Spec C/RA uses a front subframe that moves the front wheels an inch forward (for extra caster, WL style but more extreme?). Also would need PN for:
Anti-roll bars
Springs
Struts
Top mounts
Bushings
Steering rack
Strut braces (?)
Subframe
Anybody have an "in" to get such a parts list or a link on where to research this further? I know the aftermarket provides a million choices, but I've found you can rarely out-do the development of the factory's team -- especially when they switch their compromise inclinations to the sporting side....
Thanks!
pete
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Yep, but wondering about at least starting the research into how cheaply they could be had. OEM vs. aftermarket often looks like a bad value, but the development costs of the OEMs far surpasses the aftermarket development and aftermarket companies too often tell you what you want to hear, then give you crap for your money. That said, there are some very, very good aftermarket parts out there -- if you shop carefully, recognize the pros and cons, and combine the right parts.
The problem with going this way (or challenge, for those who want it) is the development time. This is fun for a hobby car, but not always for a daily, and getting the combination right on suspension is perhaps the least understood and most difficult process of them all... I'd like to learn more about what STi did to come up with this setup.
i.e., that front subframe moves the wheels forward up front by an inch -- how far does the WL ALK move the wheels forward -- if at all. I would assume they must shift up a bit for the extra castor, but comparing the two would give me a better idea of the value of the ALK vs. going with the factory's (probably more extensively tested) solution -- or confirm that the WL kit is the obvious way to go. Likewise, would like to know more about the STi Spec C strut valving, but even the NASOIC (or however you spell it) boards don't go past part numbers. Is there anybody out there who is a total Subie guru, much like the Porsche world has here the U.S.?
The problem with going this way (or challenge, for those who want it) is the development time. This is fun for a hobby car, but not always for a daily, and getting the combination right on suspension is perhaps the least understood and most difficult process of them all... I'd like to learn more about what STi did to come up with this setup.
i.e., that front subframe moves the wheels forward up front by an inch -- how far does the WL ALK move the wheels forward -- if at all. I would assume they must shift up a bit for the extra castor, but comparing the two would give me a better idea of the value of the ALK vs. going with the factory's (probably more extensively tested) solution -- or confirm that the WL kit is the obvious way to go. Likewise, would like to know more about the STi Spec C strut valving, but even the NASOIC (or however you spell it) boards don't go past part numbers. Is there anybody out there who is a total Subie guru, much like the Porsche world has here the U.S.?
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From: Penngrove, CA
Car Info: 96' GF w/EJ205
Hey Pete,
This is Rob from down the street. I was thinking about this myself. If I remember correctly BIGSKYWRX posted something about trying to see if it could be done (NASIOC). I am close to trying the Whiteline ALK, but would be more interested in doing this if it is possible (cost wise as well). This thread says a few things on the matter.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=381755
This is Rob from down the street. I was thinking about this myself. If I remember correctly BIGSKYWRX posted something about trying to see if it could be done (NASIOC). I am close to trying the Whiteline ALK, but would be more interested in doing this if it is possible (cost wise as well). This thread says a few things on the matter.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=381755
Last edited by stratos; Nov 6, 2003 at 01:57 PM.
@Stoptech
iTrader: (5)
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,416
From: San Francisco, CA
Car Info: 2002 WRX Wagon
if i recall correctly, the ALK will only give you about a half degree of castor. whiteline is one of the few companies who actually does quite a bit of research on their products before releasing them. if you go to www.whiteline.com.au or whatever it is, they have it all posted there. they spend a lot of time on the track finding out what produces the lowest lap times. there's a guy named jim gurieff that works for whiteline who is involved in the r&d process (an engineer i think), and if you could get ahold of his email address, he is very helpful.
my guess would be that it would take a lot more than just a different subframe to move the mounting point of the front wheels ie increase wheelbase by an inch, if i'm understanding you properly. remember, instead of moving the mounting point of the front wheels forward, you can always move the top of the front struts back an inch, and get virtually the same results (without the change in wheelbase and accompanying fitment problems).
so noltec makes camber plates that allow adjustment of camber as well as caster, and quite a few people have them. from what i've heard, an extra 3+ degrees of castor can be had with them. they also allow around -3 degrees of negative camber. the plates come in a street version that has rubber bushings (although still pretty firm) and race which is metal to metal.
so in order to really give your car the spec c treatment, you'd need a steering rack ($2000 at least for the STi part, you could get a rev-labs 12.5:1 rack for $1100), all the bushings (not all that much $$ to buy, but a lot of labor to install), a set of RA Spec C springs and struts (iirc, there is a thread about a lot of people being sold spec c suspension bits that aren't really spec c), whatever swaybars they use on the spec c, whatever lateral and trailing links it has, endlinks, strut tower brace (front only i think), smaller battery (i think), and a long list of things to remove from your car to make it about 150 pounds lighter.
remember, the spec c is a factory race car, and a few of the many things they remove is ALL the sound deadening material, as well as the AC, the radio, power everything, back seats, etc, etc, so what you're left with is something that would basically suck *** to drive on a day to day basis (for most people
)
my guess would be that it would take a lot more than just a different subframe to move the mounting point of the front wheels ie increase wheelbase by an inch, if i'm understanding you properly. remember, instead of moving the mounting point of the front wheels forward, you can always move the top of the front struts back an inch, and get virtually the same results (without the change in wheelbase and accompanying fitment problems).
so noltec makes camber plates that allow adjustment of camber as well as caster, and quite a few people have them. from what i've heard, an extra 3+ degrees of castor can be had with them. they also allow around -3 degrees of negative camber. the plates come in a street version that has rubber bushings (although still pretty firm) and race which is metal to metal.
so in order to really give your car the spec c treatment, you'd need a steering rack ($2000 at least for the STi part, you could get a rev-labs 12.5:1 rack for $1100), all the bushings (not all that much $$ to buy, but a lot of labor to install), a set of RA Spec C springs and struts (iirc, there is a thread about a lot of people being sold spec c suspension bits that aren't really spec c), whatever swaybars they use on the spec c, whatever lateral and trailing links it has, endlinks, strut tower brace (front only i think), smaller battery (i think), and a long list of things to remove from your car to make it about 150 pounds lighter.
remember, the spec c is a factory race car, and a few of the many things they remove is ALL the sound deadening material, as well as the AC, the radio, power everything, back seats, etc, etc, so what you're left with is something that would basically suck *** to drive on a day to day basis (for most people
)
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Thanks Rob and Razor. Prices do not surprise me (but don't make me happy, either!). Lap times are less a consideration than proper "feel", as this is a street car not a track car. That said, lap times are usually among the better objective indicators of progress and I've been impressed with WL's reading material, responses in the various forums, etc.
IMHO, the Subie's greatest weakness (once you've adressed, exhaust, mapping, brakes, and tires) is steering feel -- which is what I am most curious about with the Spec C car. EVO says the new one's finally got it where previous versions didn't. Doubtful that the strut valving or bushings are the culprits as we've (probably) seen similar bits in previous STi versions. That said, maybe some slight variations in durometer, etc could have an effect, so Part Numbers would be nice to investigate. No, it sounds like the big gains in steering feel may be down to the quick rack and this hazily described subframe and wheelbase/castor modification -- which is what it sounds like to me -- despite the logic that says that would move the wheels into potential clearance problems.
As for the rest of the Spec C's diet, I would skip it too. 150 pounds saved sharpens the package, affects spring rates, etc -- but it ain't worth it on a daily.
So the steering is the thing to focus in on here, and the three ways to go (after investigating the steering racks) appear to be:
-WhiteLine ALK
-Camber plates (something to investigate)
-This mysterious new Spec C setup (and I like factory solutions, cost aside)
What's up with the cheap rack? Never heard of it...
pete
IMHO, the Subie's greatest weakness (once you've adressed, exhaust, mapping, brakes, and tires) is steering feel -- which is what I am most curious about with the Spec C car. EVO says the new one's finally got it where previous versions didn't. Doubtful that the strut valving or bushings are the culprits as we've (probably) seen similar bits in previous STi versions. That said, maybe some slight variations in durometer, etc could have an effect, so Part Numbers would be nice to investigate. No, it sounds like the big gains in steering feel may be down to the quick rack and this hazily described subframe and wheelbase/castor modification -- which is what it sounds like to me -- despite the logic that says that would move the wheels into potential clearance problems.
As for the rest of the Spec C's diet, I would skip it too. 150 pounds saved sharpens the package, affects spring rates, etc -- but it ain't worth it on a daily.
So the steering is the thing to focus in on here, and the three ways to go (after investigating the steering racks) appear to be:
-WhiteLine ALK
-Camber plates (something to investigate)
-This mysterious new Spec C setup (and I like factory solutions, cost aside)
What's up with the cheap rack? Never heard of it...
pete
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