essogas

We're pretty certain this car will be a monster on the ashpalt but I'm wondering how the car will perform offroad. By offroad, I mean gravel roads, rough, cracked ashphalt, twisty, turny dirt roads and the accasional mud track through a field or something? I realize the car would need different tires for this, and which ones?

Janq

Its not optimized for'off-road' use.
The Si is strictly for tarmac use only.

"Compared to the standard WRX, the STi version has been lowered by 0.4-inch, yielding a lower center of gravity. The 4-wheel fully independent suspension inherits technology from the Impreza World Rally Championship competition car, but has been strictly optimized in WRX STi for high cornering performance on paved roads." - from 'SUBARU INTRODUCES 2004 IMPREZA WRX STi'

- Janq

RallyKeith

The car should handle the above mentioned things pretty well. The more uneven the terrain the worse it will get. As stated above the car is tuned for the road, but the biggest difference between road and loose surfaces is with the swaybars. For loose conditions (Snow being the worst) having no sway bar is usally the best setup, so this being road tuned it is sure to have some massive sway bars. The ground clearance shouldn't be that big of a deal. Since you already plan on getting different tires for these situations you may want to get a little bigger sidewall tire to help offset the lowering. We all know the car has the power to push a bigger tire. Don't forget, the suspension layout is still the same, so there is no loss of travel, just going to be stiffer than usual. We'll find out for sure in a month i guess.

Keith

Janq

An aftermarket option one might look into for track to light off-road use might be the Praxxis adjustable suspension system from Bridgestone.

http://www.praxissystems.com/

Set at the 'Touring' ride height is equal to a standard WRX.
While the 'Road' and 'Track' settings get progressively lower ride heights.

In combination with tall section tires this might do the trick for those who want to both play in dirt and between cones.

- Janq

essogas

For me, I don't see that much point in having an STi if it can't handle light offroad affair better than other cars. I don't expect a WRC rally car offroad performance but the STi is closer to a rally car (wait, it is a rally car!) than any other vehicle out there, so it must handle these conditions better just by default, no? How can it not? I guess I don't understand something and now I'm confused. I also read in the spec sheets that it was tuned for pavement and it had "pavement" underlined for emphasis. I just thought this car would be LESS FRAGILE than other cars (without having to drive a truck) on the harder, broken ashpalt, pot holes etc. that plague the city of Toronto. (and no jokes about SARS plaguing our city either)

Janq

Sorry Charlie...the STi is not a WRC car, nor for that matter a rally car.

In fact, it is a market facsimile with a conceptual embodiment of Subaru's strong WRC lineage. (!)

Reference www.double_speak_decoder.com and you'll find that the above statement really means; the STi is a factory hot-rod AWD turbo sports sedan 'Halo' car intended for road use all the while trading off of Subaru's winning 'race' heritage.
(That's legal double speak!)

Much the same as a showroom stock GM 'Monte Carlo SS' is only vaguely similar to real 'NASCAR' cars in color scheme and the general shape of the body and windshield.
Same as how the 'Paris-Dakar' vehicles have only a slight similarity to what you can buy at your local Toyota, Nissan, Toyota, VW, BMW, Mitsubishi, Ford, Hummer, Rover or Hino dealer.

The STi's purpose is to draw in 'enthusiasts' like you and I who can spell "W.R.C." and appreciate vehicles with 'supercar' like performance.
While for everyone else it'll provide Subaru even more 'street cred' as being a sucessful manufacturer of durable, well performing, all-wheel drive, nearly 'go anywhere' vehicles that most anyone young or old can afford.

As mentioned in Subaru's own marketing the STi is a road only vehicle. It's not intended to be traversing hill & dale like the 'General Lee' and unlike Michael Knights 'KITT' or Speed Racers 'Mark V' it won't transform from oval track star to dirt track champ with a change of tire pressure.

Now potholes and speedbumps won't be a problem other than maybe you'll get a headache and loose fillings from the stiff suspension, or worst a bent wheel.
But just like Speed you could resolve that with a pair of super powered 'airjacks' and jump over the holes in the road.

I'm very sure I'll see more than one block head abusing the crap out their STi (and/or EVO), as they do now with regular WRX's, for their friends amusement power sliding it across empty mall parking lots and jumping over bulldozer track ruts at construction lots through out my area.

Ever notice how the commercials for Subaru's almost always have in the lower right corner a wraning/disclaimer indicating "professional driver" or "closed course"?
Basically saying don't do this at home.
Well they should also mention, don't do this with your car and expect a warranty repair when you break an axle or drop your trans or burn out your clutch or crush your oil pan or generally destroy your vehicle period.

But seriously, if you want a real WRC/rally car, contact Ed Bentley at Prodrive to buy a used but rally ready WRC car ($120K US) or the good folks at RalliSpec will build up your STi to become rally capable in exchange for several thousand green backs (US), give or take a sawbuck.

Have fun with your STi...

- Janq

"They was some good ole' boys, never meaning no harm, all they ever saw was the mountain and the law since the day they was born."

essogas

Well Janq, you sure know your car stuff, but you must admit, Subau's WRX image and even more so, it's STi image which clearly draws from its WRC rally presence happens to make for a somewhat misleading representation for what should and should not be done at home, don't you think? No wonder so many "blockheads" are running about destroying their cars. Regardles, I see where you are coming from and I think of the car in a new light now. By the way, what do you drive now?

Janq

No offense Esso but I just don't buy into marketing hype.
99.9% of all products have some sort of marketing associated to it. Heck, I know as I'm currently in that business.

For example, I'm a life long bicyclist and have been a big fan of Trek cycles since before Lance Armstrong joined their team.
I currently ride a hi-end Trek mountain bike ('97) and a limited production Trek roadbike ('99) both of which wre handmade, ridden in professional competition and did very well. Yes, I take them out on trails and road and ride the heck out of them and they do perform as well as expected & marketed.
But they are the equivalent of buying an actual WRC car.

The STi on the other hand is not marketed as being a WRC car.
Subie states it's from the 'heritage' of the WRC car.
Big difference.
Not to mention Lance is now a 'spokesperson' for Subaru.
You bet you'll see some Trek or Lance Armstrong branded Impreza's & Legacy's in the coming months/year.
Not to mention a bunch of Lance wanna-be's riding around on anything Trek...with riser bars and comfort seats.

Another example is Ford and their 'Ford Tough' commercials where they drop loads of heavy construction stuff like telephone poles, yards of dirt and cement piping into the truck beds.
Yeah, that seems cool. But do that to your own F-350 IRL and you're next stop will be the body shop to get your frame realigned and suspension rebuilt.

The STi is without a doubt going to be cooler than Kool-Aid in August. But it's not to be mistaken as being a rally car.
It'll make a nice and very competitive auto-cross car though.

Currently I drive a 2004 Honda 'Pilot' EX-L SUV (wife's car).
I commute to work in a '92 Subaru 'Legacy' 4EAT AWD sedan as well as by bicycle. The STi will supplement my Legacy as a daily commuter and weekend autocross car while the Legacy will do full-time work as my sports/activity support vehicle & winter/snow car. I'm also looking in to picking up a Ducatti motorcycle later this summer as a birthday present to myself.

I've owned four Subaru's, worked in the auto industry including for SOA for 10 years going back to my entre' and first real job in '86 at a Subaru dealership.

- Janq

essogas

Well Janq after your last reply, I have to say I believe you much less now regarding the "rally" performance of the new STi, for two reasons. First of all, I don't fall for marketing hype because I work in commercial production and have made many auto TV commercials. That said, not all commercials are out to stretch the truth. You said:

WRONG. I use these trucks on our commercials to do the muscle work. And let me tell you, they perform. We load them to the ****, drop stuff in them, and DRAG heavy cable loads on the ground by attaching slings to the frame well over a ton and the thing doesn't even break a sweat and we do it over and over. Amazing. These things are work trucks, man, pure and simple. If F-350 isn't a work truck or not really "heavy-duty" what the hell is? It seems in your opinion "heavy-duty doesn't exist and you can't do this work with any truck, short a bulldozer.

Now, back to the STi. Here's the second reason I question your judgement about the "rally" capabilities of the STi. I've test driven a number of cars, including the 04' WRX in a decent amount of snow and plenty of ice three weeks ago. The WRX outperformed all cars by a mile! There wasn't even any competition. It also handled better than everything else too. So what I'm saying is granted a WRX or STi is not and could not be the equal to a 500 thousand dollar WRC car but the WRX still, clearly outperformed any of the others in harsher conditions and it is clearly pointed in the direction of a real rally car that the others. The STi can only be better. I agree with you that jumping pot holes, power sliding through parking lots and driving over huge ruts could be detrimental to your car, without question but compared to the rest of the CARS on the market I believe it would handle those tasks far better. My test drive proved it. This is my opinion only, and it is a discussion forum.

Janq

That's cool essogas, no worries.

But again the marketing portrayed both by Ford as well as GM/GMC toward their products (trucks or otherwise) are often miselading.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying nor implying Ford's trucks are weak in anyway. I too have direct expereience with their products and used to drive an F-350 as a tractor for a 7 space car carrier via a fifth wheel seatup. Properly configured they are strong and quite durable if maintained.

But none the less the advertising associated with vehicles can stretch the truth just a bit and lead buyers to expect a little more than what they'll receive IRL. Maybe I referenced the wrong commercial example (first to come to mind at the time) but my point remains.

The STi is optimized for road going use...and Subaru says so.

Now in my mind driving over a gravel road or 'paved dirt' is one thing. I don't consider that to be 'off-road', thats what marketers call "soft-road". The STi should and most likely will handle soft-road use without a problem.

Below is a Subaru marketing picture demonstrating an STi being used properly.


But true off-road use such as what you'll see on Speedchannel/WRC requires equipment above and beyond what Subie provides stock on the STi or the regular WRX.

Below is a second picture from Subaru marketing that _implies_ the STi to be able to handle more than it really can.


Notice how the STi is sitting at the end of a trail that winds down the side of a rocky outcropping.
One might (would) look at the picture and believe its setup to be truth and think the STi just drove down the hill past and above the rocks on the trail. A sense of ruggedness is implied like the WRC car.

But fact is that car never crossed that path. It was backed up into the view. Proof you say?!
The trail on the hill is narrower than the cars own track.
Further, the front lip would have taken some scrathes but in the pic the car looks showroom new.

But don't believe me, when you STi arrives try it out for yourself and see how well your faire.
Better yet see what the SRT (Subaru Rally Team) has to say about the upfitting required to compete in WRC.

- SRT.com - Impreza Rally Car
- SRT.com - Tech Talk
- SRT.com - '03 Open Class WRX

Yes, your STi _can_ in fact be rallied just like the WRC car.
But it will require a nealry complete re-build from factory condition using non OEM products & techniques (Full cage, seam welding, aftermarket suspension pieces, etc.) to make it to the finish line.

Good luck with your STi...

- Janq

essogas

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Janq
[B]
Below is a second picture from Subaru marketing that _implies_ the STi to be able to handle more than it really can.


This is the exact picture that prompted me to start this thread in the first place! I didn't think they would have subjected the car to that, but I still wondered. Hell, even the brutal Greece rallies aren't as hard as that and the WRC cars come back batterd up on the finish line. I think I let my imagination get the best of me to a degree, and you have shown me a sense of reality. And although I WILL put my car through some soft-road activity you will definitely make me think twice or be very careful at least.

Be sure to watch the New Zealand WRC tonight at 9:00 PM EST on Speed networ and root for makinen and Peter solberg! Here's a pic of a WRC car that I own now! LOL!

Janq

<lol>

Believe me I drive the wheels off my Legacy AWD 4EAT.

I take it four wheeling in the spring, use on the boat ramp in the summer (to launch and retrieve my sea kayaks), drive it over, up and through underbrush that gives some pickup & SUV owners pause year round when acessing various paintball fields that I visit locally, and I'm the only guy in my neighborhood that purposefully drives through snow, sluch and ice and goes four wheeling during the winter.

Its factory stock with the original shocks. The only upgrades are steel rims with Bridgestone Blizzaks (winter/spring) and Pirelli all-season tires (summer/fall), a hand operated winch & tow strap stored in the trunk, a 6 cell flaslight and a cell-phone.

In twelve years of ownership and 180K+ miles I have driven into and out of the worst mother nature could dump on us (DC/MD/VA) including floods, snows & ice and only once gotten it stuck. I've jumped it, run it over and through the worst potholes Wash., DC has to offer and she has never failed to come back for more. In my family Subaru's are known as 'Supercars'.

Believe me, you'll find no bigger fan of Subies than me.
But even still one must acknolwedge reality. Having owned a low riding large tired tight suspension SVX LSi I know from past expereience that even a Subie can be stopped under the right conditions.

Now the STi is no SVX but its setup is more similar to it than the Legacy. Lower to the ground than a WRX with less suspension rebound, tighter suspension, larger sway bars and big & wide low profile tires won't help it in snow, ice or rough road.
Now if you upgrade to narrower rims & higher profile tires that may increase the STi's ability to go further off-road.
As for build quality, Subaru in my mind & eye has nothing to prove their. When is the last time you saw a Subie broken down on the side of the road. I've seen more Lexus' in that state than Subaru.

I can't wait to get my STi, and throw her around some corners after a proper break in of course. ; )

BTW, cool WRC car. Is it RC? I'm thinking of getting a Tamiya AWD WRC model myself.

essogas

Good post Josh. We know you can't go wrong with whatever car you choose.

And the photo of my "car" is actually a 1/18 scale model measuring about 10 inches long taken with a macro lens. It almost looks real, huh?

Janq

Hi Josh,

Welcome to the fray.
This thread has gone off on so many tangents I've forgotten where it began.

But to follow on to your post, I'm in the same situation as you.
I live and work in the suburbs, visit the hard & potholed city in the evening and am off-road nearly all weekend with various actvities.

Yeah, I could use my wifes truck for my activities but then that means moving around the baby seat (a pain!) and paying her to drive the TSi which she has already said she would not be seen in under any circumstance. Too ricey for her sensibilities.

I agree with you that the EVO is wound too tight for soft road much less off road use. The VEO is not an option in my book though as for the money of an STi you get more bang for your buck. Althought the regular WRX is as you say soft in the suspension thats only because of its relatively long travel and loose setup. Great for bashing around, within limits, soft road and even off-road at speeds greater than a crawl. In fact the WRX gets smoother the faster you drive it over rough stuff.
The EVO on theother hand is setup pretty much like a skateboard, stiff and tight for the twisities. The STi is somewhere in the middle from my understandings.

I had not seen the EVO mag you mention but if its like any of the other reviews I've read and seen from the foreign press its most likely of a JDM or Euro spec 2.0 STi or a Spec C RA which are both setup different than the US STi 2.5.
In my mind the real test will come from the folks at Car & Driver as well as Autoweek & MotorWeek. These three have proven to me over the past 20 years to be truly impartial and accurate in analysis (ok, so C&D loves BMW).

I was correct on my bet that Subie would not sell this thign for greater than $31,500 MSRP and now I'm betting that these three will find the EVO to be slightly quicker around a track but the STi the "Best Value" and easiset to live with four seasons.
Also I bet they will do a comparo of the EVO, STi and Porsche C4S (gold standard) sometime down the road.
My pic if E/3, C4S/2 and STi first place!

Time will tell the tale...

- Janq