Mustang Vs. Airboy

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Old Mar 23, 2010 | 08:51 PM
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Mustang Vs. Airboy

Ok here it is. The car was not flowing as much air in these hotter temps than it was when I first started dialing up this 68HTA in the cold mornings..

The tune was done on the Mustang Dyno at DBTuned and is reasonably close.. It was immediately followed up by a street pull to compare results..

On the dyno and on the street today I was only logging about 301 g/sec of airflow max.. On one particular cold winter morning I saw as much as 318 g/sec.. (Remember these numbers are all relative and if you have your maf / injector duty cycles jacked up you are going to log something completely different)


ONE MORE NOTE. On the Mustang, the car was only building 23 to maybe 24 lbs of boost.. The instant it was on the street it was building 26psi rock solid.. So there may be a difference in boost in this comparison of between 2 and 3psi.



Mutang Plot




Airboy Plot




Airboy overlaid onto Mustang Plot




A note about airboy plots. They are extremely easy to manipulate.. Nudge your delta weight up a bit, fudge your tire size, tweak the air temp's, etc., and you can make them read pretty much however you want..

On the above plot I was extremely **** about getting every last detail in right.. Tire sizes, air temps, elevation, delta weight, etc..

Minus the 2-3 psi possible difference between the two it should be a pretty good comparison, on my car today..

So about 18% in this case..
Old Mar 23, 2010 | 09:36 PM
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Wow thats crazy. Why would the airboy read so much higher?
Old Mar 23, 2010 | 10:10 PM
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ive have a diff experience with airboy. numbers seem to match up pretty good to eds road dyno. which in turn eds software puts out numbers close to gst's heartbreaker.. im not bashin you but you have to be doin something wrong for there to be that big of a difference between db's #'s and airboys
Old Mar 23, 2010 | 10:12 PM
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if you want to send me a log or post one up ill run the numbers with the info provided so we can see if my data vs. rpm #'s match up
Old Mar 23, 2010 | 11:41 PM
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And some folks like to "tweak" their dyno's #'s to read a bit more pretty.. Litte correction here, little tweak there.. "Look at this customer X! You're making Y on my heartbreaker! Aren't you happy! Now hand over the $$!"

Im not saying that is what the folks you mentioned are doing, but there is a certain monitary motivation to make the #'s look pretty.. If anyone else wants to volunteer some pulls on their dyno to compare to these I am totally up for it.. I wont touch the tune - no reason to.

I've been doing this tuning thing for quite a while.. I'm pretty confident the data was entered correctly. I'll toss up some logs tomorrow.

The Airboy #'s are reading fairly close to what I'd expect a dynojet to come up with running 3 or so more lbs of boost from what I was making on the Mustang. (And that is really a blind guess.. Every dyno reads a bit different..)

So if you figure with a bit more air hitting the CAI and a few more lbs of boost making up the difference of 4 or 5 % the comparison would be pretty close to correct if you assumed airboy numbers are closer to a Dynojet.. But its all relative.. It's kinda pointless to try to make these kinds of comparisons.. I just wanted to see back to back what the airboy interp. would show.

But really all that counts for me is what the car does tomorrow night at the track.

Last edited by Bouncer; Mar 23, 2010 at 11:44 PM.
Old Mar 24, 2010 | 12:10 AM
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Cant wait to see some drag times

Do you have any times to compare them to?
Old Mar 24, 2010 | 06:38 AM
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Most airboy graphs I've seen are usually really consistent with the mustang dyno, but as you've said: its easy to alter the parameters and mess things up.
Dyno is just a tool.

The real measure of power will be the trap speed. Good luck today
Old Mar 24, 2010 | 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by achavez
ive have a diff experience with airboy. numbers seem to match up pretty good to eds road dyno. which in turn eds software puts out numbers close to gst's heartbreaker.. im not bashin you but you have to be doin something wrong for there to be that big of a difference between db's #'s and airboys
A chassis/engine dyno is a tool that can measure the physical characteristic we refer to as "torque".
HP is a derived unit of measure.
A road dyno is merely software that can very closely simulate the same result.
Old Mar 24, 2010 | 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Bouncer
A note about airboy plots. They are extremely easy to manipulate.. Nudge your delta weight up a bit, fudge your tire size, tweak the air temp's, etc., and you can make them read pretty much however you want..
Originally Posted by stupidchicken03
Wow thats crazy. Why would the airboy read so much higher?
logic mother****er, do you use it? means the delta's for paul's dyno are different than airboy... which is to be expected. a tq wrench in my garage and the tq wrench in yours will not read exactly the same unless we both had them calibrated first.

HP numbers are the easiest to messup since its a bull**** number anyway and isnt even a recognized SI unit of measure. In mechanical horspower it is usually defined by converting tq/s to watts. 550flb/s = 1watt = 1 horsepower? or something like that.

so if airboy reads higher tq numbers it should by default show higher HP also.
Old Mar 24, 2010 | 08:24 AM
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I'm going to try and make it out to the track tonight.
Old Mar 24, 2010 | 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Bouncer
Ok here it is. The car was not flowing as much air in these hotter temps than it was when I first started dialing up this 68HTA in the cold mornings..

The tune was done on the Mustang Dyno at DBTuned and is reasonably close.. It was immediately followed up by a street pull to compare results..

On the dyno and on the street today I was only logging about 301 g/sec of airflow max.. On one particular cold winter morning I saw as much as 318 g/sec.. (Remember these numbers are all relative and if you have your maf / injector duty cycles jacked up you are going to log something completely different)


ONE MORE NOTE. On the Mustang, the car was only building 23 to maybe 24 lbs of boost.. The instant it was on the street it was building 26psi rock solid.. So there may be a difference in boost in this comparison of between 2 and 3psi.



Mutang Plot




Airboy Plot




Airboy overlaid onto Mustang Plot




A note about airboy plots. They are extremely easy to manipulate.. Nudge your delta weight up a bit, fudge your tire size, tweak the air temp's, etc., and you can make them read pretty much however you want..

On the above plot I was extremely **** about getting every last detail in right.. Tire sizes, air temps, elevation, delta weight, etc..

Minus the 2-3 psi possible difference between the two it should be a pretty good comparison, on my car today..

So about 18% in this case..
My tests between our dyno and the airboy stuff has shown about 14-16% difference when criteria has been setup accurately.

Mike
Old Mar 24, 2010 | 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by GST Motorsports
My tests between our dyno and the airboy stuff has shown about 14-16% difference when criteria has been setup accurately.

Mike
And that sounds about bang on. The car was building a few more lbs of boost on the street than it was on the rollers. Intake air temps were also a touch cooler, And I have a cold air intake that the filter sits behind the fog lights.. The passenger side fog light is removed - on the road there would be a nice amount of air blasting into the fenderwell where the filter is.. I should have stuck a fan on the hole..
Old Mar 26, 2010 | 06:26 PM
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Ben was kind enough to send over the data log he used for the airboy plot along with the config data he used for me to compare with my road dyno software. Here are the results:



Assuming the car is running 3psi more boost in this log than it was on the chassis dyno, the numbers match up very closely.

It seems like the main discrepancy in the airboy plot is the last couple hundred RPM where it shows HP suddenly climbing another ~30whp. I've seen this before from some other road dyno software. It can occur because the final few hundred RPM's of a data log generally have a relatively low data rate, so the software has to do extra calculations to try to plot out that area. Different road dyno software packages use different methods to extrapolate those "extensions" and the method they use can greatly impact that part of the graph. This is something I worked on extensively when designing my software to try to make the plotting as accurate as possible and you can see that that part of the graph is significantly different in plot.

Its always interesting to do this kind of comparison to see the differences in the different tools people use.

Thanks
-- Ed
Old Mar 26, 2010 | 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul@dbtuned
A chassis/engine dyno is a tool that can measure the physical characteristic we refer to as "torque".
HP is a derived unit of measure.
A road dyno is merely software that can very closely simulate the same result.
That's not entirely correct. Most chassis dynos do measure torque and calculate hp, but there are some dynos like the DynoJet that actually measure power and calculate torque using RPM data. Remember that power is a measure of work over time. Dynojets work purely off the weight and inertia of their large, heavy rollers. By measuring how quickly those rollers are accelerated over time, they can then derive a direct power measurement. Then the software uses the RPM data to calculate back torque. You'll notice, for example, that you can actually do a pull on a Dynojet without using an RPM pickup and it will only plot power over time because it does not have RPM data to use for its torque calculation.

Road dyno software works on a similar principle. It measures the car's actual on-road acceleration, and then using parameters like weight, frontal area, and drag coefficient, the software calculates the work done over time by the engine and then can derive power and torque just like a chassis dyno. Given optimal conditions (100% flat road, no wind, extremely high data capture rate, etc), the power/torque representation from road dyno software would be exactly as accurate as the power/torque derived by a chassis dyno. Of course we don't live in a perfect world. I've found that the main limitation in most road dyno software or measurements is the data rate of whatever logging software or interface being used to acquire the data. The lower data rate makes it more difficult for the software to filter out noise while still keeping a good level of detail in the dyno plot. This is where chassis dynos shine because they generally have a very high data capture rate and are able to show greater detail in a lot of cases.

Of course chassis dynos can have their drawbacks as well. Using the OP as a perfect example, his car would only make 23psi on the chassis dyno, but as soon as he put it on the street, it makes 26psi easily. This means that either the dyno was not providing as much load as his car experiences on a real road, or the car was not getting as much airflow into the intake/intercooler/radiator on the chassis dyno as it does under real world conditions. Most likely its a combination of several factors. Another issue to consider is the air quality inside the dyno facility. A lot of chassis dynos are set up in a manner that causes the dyno room to fill up with exhaust fumes over time and these fumes are then sucked back into the engine through the intake. Obviously exhaust fumes don't contain nearly as much O2 as open air, so this can greatly throw off a/f ratio measurements as well as power levels.

Its always important to remember that these are tools we use and they all have their benefits and drawbacks. Exploring those differences is important and will hopefully help us optimize our tools in the long run.

Thanks
-- Ed
Old Mar 28, 2010 | 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by EQ Tuning
That's not entirely correct. Most chassis dynos do measure torque and calculate hp, but there are some dynos like the DynoJet that actually measure power and calculate torque using RPM data. Remember that power is a measure of work over time. Dynojets work purely off the weight and inertia of their large, heavy rollers. By measuring how quickly those rollers are accelerated over time, they can then derive a direct power measurement. Then the software uses the RPM data to calculate back torque. You'll notice, for example, that you can actually do a pull on a Dynojet without using an RPM pickup and it will only plot power over time because it does not have RPM data to use for its torque calculation.
wouldn't it be that a dynojet without the RPM pickup only displays HP (i'm assuming that is HP vs. roller rpm?) because it lacks the missing piece of information to calculate the gear reduction, thus not able to calculate "engine" torque? the dyno measures the torque applied to the rollers and the rpm of the rollers and that is enough to calculate HP.

that calculated HP number would be the same regardless of being calculated as:
((roller torque * roller RPM) / 5252)
or as
(((roller torque / gear reduction) * (roller RPM * gear reduction)) / 5252)



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