Cobb Street Cams
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cams
hey there everyone i want to get cams but i dont know much about them nore do i know how much to spend. after i get my tax return i want to buy them but i was wondering what kind to get and if there is some cams out there that aren't regrinds like the cobbs. but if thats my only option i will go that route but the core charge is a killer thanks
2001 rs 2.5
thanks
will
2001 rs 2.5
thanks
will
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Cobb gets (or at least they used to get) their cams from webcams in california. I just noticed that webcams is now advertising in SCC with subaru applications. May want to contact them. Also, Paeco makes cams for us.. they are regrinds and they'll probably need your cams first (or another set that you supply). I believe that there are some others out there (Jun for example) but you'll be paying a ton for them.
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Part 1
BOY – There are a couple of reasons why or cams may seem to be more expensive than cams for other vehicles.
1 – They are not simple re-grinds. Simple re-grinds are not a good choice for several reasons. The Web Cam process starts with a lot of material being removed from the lobes. This is done so that more material can be added and there be a layer of the new material that is thick enough to be durable. This process is called hard welding. The added material is even stronger than the stock cam material. The cam is then re-grinded (or as Web Cam prefers to call it, re-profiled). We do this process mainly for the reasons of durability, consistency, and quality. We have looked at several fresh billets and found them to be of lower quality with less consistency. In other words the stock cam is better. The only exception is if the cam is in bad shape from poor maintenance of mechanical problems. We have turned down core refunds for those reasons. Our decision to go with the Web Cams process was what we felt to be the better option and was not based on price. The hard welding and re-profiling process is actually sometimes used by OEM’s in heavy duty applications on factory vehicles. It is very common on motors that share a same design, but a few different configurations.
Another advantage in the process that we have performed is that the stock base circle is kept which is critical in getting proper clearances.
2 – Subarus are not the most modified vehicle on the market. As soon as Subarus rule the world and we do a huge volume of cams, the price would likely go down. That is one reason besides quality why Honda and Chevy cams are cheaper in most cases. Until Subarus are as common as Hondas we are all out of luck since most pricing is based on volume.
Imprezfan1 – The Street cams on a stock car got 14-15 peak h.p. and 19 h.p. at redline……..to the wheels. Considering that my 01 RS ran 15.0 with the Stage 1 Power Package, and 14.8 with the Stage 2 Power Package, adding cams to either should get you a solid 14 if you get a good launch. My 60ft’s are typically 1.9-2.00. Weather they are worth it or not is only a question you can answer. Some people do not consider modifying their car “worth it”. Your combo, the dyno info, and your hanging with WRX’s should put you very solidly in the 14’s.
BOY – There are a couple of reasons why or cams may seem to be more expensive than cams for other vehicles.
1 – They are not simple re-grinds. Simple re-grinds are not a good choice for several reasons. The Web Cam process starts with a lot of material being removed from the lobes. This is done so that more material can be added and there be a layer of the new material that is thick enough to be durable. This process is called hard welding. The added material is even stronger than the stock cam material. The cam is then re-grinded (or as Web Cam prefers to call it, re-profiled). We do this process mainly for the reasons of durability, consistency, and quality. We have looked at several fresh billets and found them to be of lower quality with less consistency. In other words the stock cam is better. The only exception is if the cam is in bad shape from poor maintenance of mechanical problems. We have turned down core refunds for those reasons. Our decision to go with the Web Cams process was what we felt to be the better option and was not based on price. The hard welding and re-profiling process is actually sometimes used by OEM’s in heavy duty applications on factory vehicles. It is very common on motors that share a same design, but a few different configurations.
Another advantage in the process that we have performed is that the stock base circle is kept which is critical in getting proper clearances.2 – Subarus are not the most modified vehicle on the market. As soon as Subarus rule the world and we do a huge volume of cams, the price would likely go down. That is one reason besides quality why Honda and Chevy cams are cheaper in most cases. Until Subarus are as common as Hondas we are all out of luck since most pricing is based on volume.
Imprezfan1 – The Street cams on a stock car got 14-15 peak h.p. and 19 h.p. at redline……..to the wheels. Considering that my 01 RS ran 15.0 with the Stage 1 Power Package, and 14.8 with the Stage 2 Power Package, adding cams to either should get you a solid 14 if you get a good launch. My 60ft’s are typically 1.9-2.00. Weather they are worth it or not is only a question you can answer. Some people do not consider modifying their car “worth it”.
Your combo, the dyno info, and your hanging with WRX’s should put you very solidly in the 14’s.
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N/ABeast – You seem to harbor a lot of contempt for us. :P
“Webcams makes his regrinds” – Yes Web Cams does perform the work for us on the cams to our specifications. If we had copied someone else’s grinds you would have a point. Until everyone has a dyno and experience I doubt that most will be able to get the correct grinds. We did a lot of testing to get the right profiles. That part of the cam is ours, and is probably the most important factor. It is where knowledge and testing pay off. We do not charge a single penny more that if you went to Web Cam directly. We offer our knowledge, experience, and proven results at no charge. If you tried your own grind, got it wrong (it is easy to do), you have to pay again to get the cams re-profiled again. We did this many times before choosing our current grinds. Maybe we should charge for that………just kidding.
“Stromung makes his exhausts” – Guilty as charged. Regardless of manufacturer our exhaust has added features that Stromung does not offer. There is a pre-silencer in our mid-pipe that does change the sound and it is of a higher quality steel. Does it surprise you that hardly anybody does anything in-house. Prodrive makes nothing, it is all contracted out, just like many other companies. Heck, Stromung does not make all of the components for their own exhausts. They do not make their own flanges, muffler cases, bends, and gaskets. That is all contracted out. We simply contract them to assemble our exhausts to our specifications. Another example: Subaru does not make their ECUs, Denso does. But wait, Denso does not make the chips, someone else does. Does that mean Subaru has not input to the final outcome and that it is not in essence a Subaru product?
“the Borla Headers on his page are about 150 overpriced” – They are actually being removed when a new site goes live. We have not sold any since the price change and don’t really care to. In fact we ordered a lot of Borla headers in an attempt to take care of some customers, but we have not received any confirmation on our order, any headers (despite having been ordered months ago), or any info despite repeated attempts. We will give all of our customers who ordered them the option to go with our header/cat set-up or just plain cancel the order. Thank God we do not charge until we ship unlike most companies in this market.
“generally everything is repackaged at a higher price” – O.K. Example of our high prices:
Stromung Stainless Steel Single Tip - $405
Stromung Stainless Steel Mid-pipe - $168 (not on their site but available)
Stromung Cat-back Total - $573
COBB Cat-back Total - $575
The extra $2 does not seem so bad for a very long pre-silencer and a higher grade of steel, but I may have an odd sense of value. In fact that seems to be a good value to me, unless you are not comparing apples to apples. I will be willing to bet that getting a pre-silence and having it welded in will cost you more than $2. I know it costs us a lot more to have it done. The Stromung mild steel cat-back does come out cheaper, but it is an orange to our proverbial apple. Also, back to the cams……..we don’t charge any more than Web Cams. Weird.
“Does Cobb actually design their own heads?” – No Subaru does……………or did they?
We improve the factory heads since they are an awesome base to begin with oddly enough just like their cams, but yes all port work and development is done in-house.
Cheers,
Josh Tenny (dang, that was my patents’ last name, I guess I’m not me)
COBB Tuning
P.S. Sorry for all of the sarcasm. I was just answering in the tone that the original post was written.
Bad Josh!!!
“Webcams makes his regrinds” – Yes Web Cams does perform the work for us on the cams to our specifications. If we had copied someone else’s grinds you would have a point. Until everyone has a dyno and experience I doubt that most will be able to get the correct grinds. We did a lot of testing to get the right profiles. That part of the cam is ours, and is probably the most important factor. It is where knowledge and testing pay off. We do not charge a single penny more that if you went to Web Cam directly. We offer our knowledge, experience, and proven results at no charge. If you tried your own grind, got it wrong (it is easy to do), you have to pay again to get the cams re-profiled again. We did this many times before choosing our current grinds. Maybe we should charge for that………just kidding.
“Stromung makes his exhausts” – Guilty as charged. Regardless of manufacturer our exhaust has added features that Stromung does not offer. There is a pre-silencer in our mid-pipe that does change the sound and it is of a higher quality steel. Does it surprise you that hardly anybody does anything in-house. Prodrive makes nothing, it is all contracted out, just like many other companies. Heck, Stromung does not make all of the components for their own exhausts. They do not make their own flanges, muffler cases, bends, and gaskets. That is all contracted out. We simply contract them to assemble our exhausts to our specifications. Another example: Subaru does not make their ECUs, Denso does. But wait, Denso does not make the chips, someone else does. Does that mean Subaru has not input to the final outcome and that it is not in essence a Subaru product?
“the Borla Headers on his page are about 150 overpriced” – They are actually being removed when a new site goes live. We have not sold any since the price change and don’t really care to. In fact we ordered a lot of Borla headers in an attempt to take care of some customers, but we have not received any confirmation on our order, any headers (despite having been ordered months ago), or any info despite repeated attempts. We will give all of our customers who ordered them the option to go with our header/cat set-up or just plain cancel the order. Thank God we do not charge until we ship unlike most companies in this market.
“generally everything is repackaged at a higher price” – O.K. Example of our high prices:
Stromung Stainless Steel Single Tip - $405
Stromung Stainless Steel Mid-pipe - $168 (not on their site but available)
Stromung Cat-back Total - $573
COBB Cat-back Total - $575
The extra $2 does not seem so bad for a very long pre-silencer and a higher grade of steel, but I may have an odd sense of value. In fact that seems to be a good value to me, unless you are not comparing apples to apples. I will be willing to bet that getting a pre-silence and having it welded in will cost you more than $2. I know it costs us a lot more to have it done. The Stromung mild steel cat-back does come out cheaper, but it is an orange to our proverbial apple. Also, back to the cams……..we don’t charge any more than Web Cams. Weird.
“Does Cobb actually design their own heads?” – No Subaru does……………or did they?
We improve the factory heads since they are an awesome base to begin with oddly enough just like their cams, but yes all port work and development is done in-house.Cheers,
Josh Tenny (dang, that was my patents’ last name, I guess I’m not me)
COBB Tuning
P.S. Sorry for all of the sarcasm. I was just answering in the tone that the original post was written.
Bad Josh!!!
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Thanks!
Well, after all the information posted from all you fellow Subees I have decided that my next paycheck should be spent on a high flow cat, and than the cams.
Dear Josh, I was wondering. Why did you switch from the Stromung exhaust to your current one? Is your exhaust stainless steel? Do you have dyno charts. I am currently running on an N1 Catback by Apex and growing to dislike the look of the exhaust and want something more conservative yet still very performing. And also, I am very interested in a high flow cat and if i choose it would be between yours Cobb design or the Random Tech one. Which is better? Knowing that your with Cobb Tunning, I am not hesitant to ask for your advice anyhow. Thanks!
Vince
Dear Josh, I was wondering. Why did you switch from the Stromung exhaust to your current one? Is your exhaust stainless steel? Do you have dyno charts. I am currently running on an N1 Catback by Apex and growing to dislike the look of the exhaust and want something more conservative yet still very performing. And also, I am very interested in a high flow cat and if i choose it would be between yours Cobb design or the Random Tech one. Which is better? Knowing that your with Cobb Tunning, I am not hesitant to ask for your advice anyhow. Thanks!
Vince
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From: Reno, NV
Car Info: 1993/2000/2001 GF4 mostly red
I guess it is still a Stromung exhaust, just different from the one you would get that says "stromung" on the box. At any rate, I am back on the cams bandwagon. Hopefully one day my skills and wallet will allow me to swap them in!
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N/ABeast – One of the many designs we tested for an intake was actually a re-designed air box. We tried many box sizes from larger to stock, to smaller than stock. We even had an adjustable velocity stack to the throttle body. It made enough low end torque to pull a stump out of the ground, but did not make much above stock after that. I have not tried you specific idea of dremmeling out the ribs in the box, but I think gains all across the powerband would be around 3 h.p./torque above stock. We even tried a 3” inlet into the airbox and yielded an average of around 2-3 h.p./torque gains. Not bad, but far from optimal.
Imprezfan1 – A high flow cat will not give as much gains as the cams, but the bang for the buck is better, especially when factoring install into the cams.
We switched to our own exhaust mainly to get a higher grade of stainless steel (yes it is stainless, and a higher grade than most as mentioned above ) and the resonator. Power gains are basically the same as every other cat-back on the market. If anyone thinks any one make significantly more power than an other is mistaken. It is hard to make one 2.25” pipe with a muffler flow any better than the next 2.25” muffler. Bigger pipe does trade off a ft/lbs of torque on the bottom end for a h.p. on the top end, but other than that they are all the same power wise. A straight pipe makes almost exactly the same power as one with a good flowing muffler. We tried that too. No muffler does shave a few lbs. off the car though.
Since we do not offer our cat anymore that narrows the choices a little. If we get enough orders we can do another batch of them, but it would take at least 25-30 orders for us to do so. Our future cat will only fit our header. We first offered the Random Tech cats, but they were just that………random. We had many failures and the fit varied greatly. It took us I don’t know how many tries to get them to make it fit somewhat properly (proper joint to the cat to avoid leaking, flanges located improperly, etc). At one time it got to the point where Trey didn’t know why I kept trying. Their final design is a million times better than the first one we got so they have come a long way. I feel that their RS design is as much a result of our input and time as theirs. I put more blood sweat and tears into it that I want to remember. And they still don’t use what I consider to be proper flanges. As the saga continued we had our own cats made. They made just as much power, but fit a zillion times better. The flanges were proper, the bracket to hold it up was much better, and the shoulders on the rear spring bolts were fully functional again.
My advice is just from experience. I did not come on here to make sales, but release some info that I felt was pertinent to the discussion. We do not even carry the replacement cat anymore. So take my opinions as those of an informed enthusiast. Despite the aggravations that are inherent inn the job I still would not trade it for the world. I get paid to do what I wanted to do as a hobby.
BAN SUVS – Awesome screen name. If that is the way you want to refer to it. I can give you the manufactures of many exhausts (branded under their own name) if I thought it served a purpose. If our exhaust was assembled in-house it would still be the same as it is now........only more expensive. I guess the features we add to anything (even if the cost is less) are all for not. Also, quite a bit of the components on your Subaru says Mitsubishi. Some of the things I have learned while in the business are interesting to say the least.
Cheers,
Josh
COBB Tuning
Edit: forgot my signature :P
Imprezfan1 – A high flow cat will not give as much gains as the cams, but the bang for the buck is better, especially when factoring install into the cams.
We switched to our own exhaust mainly to get a higher grade of stainless steel (yes it is stainless, and a higher grade than most as mentioned above
) and the resonator. Power gains are basically the same as every other cat-back on the market. If anyone thinks any one make significantly more power than an other is mistaken. It is hard to make one 2.25” pipe with a muffler flow any better than the next 2.25” muffler. Bigger pipe does trade off a ft/lbs of torque on the bottom end for a h.p. on the top end, but other than that they are all the same power wise. A straight pipe makes almost exactly the same power as one with a good flowing muffler. We tried that too. No muffler does shave a few lbs. off the car though. Since we do not offer our cat anymore that narrows the choices a little. If we get enough orders we can do another batch of them, but it would take at least 25-30 orders for us to do so. Our future cat will only fit our header. We first offered the Random Tech cats, but they were just that………random. We had many failures and the fit varied greatly. It took us I don’t know how many tries to get them to make it fit somewhat properly (proper joint to the cat to avoid leaking, flanges located improperly, etc). At one time it got to the point where Trey didn’t know why I kept trying. Their final design is a million times better than the first one we got so they have come a long way. I feel that their RS design is as much a result of our input and time as theirs. I put more blood sweat and tears into it that I want to remember. And they still don’t use what I consider to be proper flanges. As the saga continued we had our own cats made. They made just as much power, but fit a zillion times better. The flanges were proper, the bracket to hold it up was much better, and the shoulders on the rear spring bolts were fully functional again.
My advice is just from experience. I did not come on here to make sales, but release some info that I felt was pertinent to the discussion. We do not even carry the replacement cat anymore. So take my opinions as those of an informed enthusiast. Despite the aggravations that are inherent inn the job I still would not trade it for the world. I get paid to do what I wanted to do as a hobby.
BAN SUVS – Awesome screen name. If that is the way you want to refer to it. I can give you the manufactures of many exhausts (branded under their own name) if I thought it served a purpose. If our exhaust was assembled in-house it would still be the same as it is now........only more expensive. I guess the features we add to anything (even if the cost is less) are all for not.
Also, quite a bit of the components on your Subaru says Mitsubishi. Some of the things I have learned while in the business are interesting to say the least.Cheers,
Josh
COBB Tuning
Edit: forgot my signature :P
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Josh?
Sorry for being slow Josh, but which do you recommend than? The New Random Tech or the Cobb Tuning High Flow cat? Or did you say that Cobb doesn't make their own.
Josh- do you work for Cobb Tuning or do you make and design their products? Cams are 499 so I get 2 cams plus and additional 400 core char rite? I get that money back when I send in my stock ones? Sorrie for the hassle. You are of very GOOD help!
Thanks Josh!
Josh- do you work for Cobb Tuning or do you make and design their products? Cams are 499 so I get 2 cams plus and additional 400 core char rite? I get that money back when I send in my stock ones? Sorrie for the hassle. You are of very GOOD help!
Thanks Josh!
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Josh, long time no talk to! How's Utah? Anyway, I've been following your guys progress up there and keep it up! Josh, you should know my opinion on prices by now... all of your comments are dead on, that doesn't mean I like paying that much for a set of cams-- but the power is definately there! Have you guys looked at Catco as a manufacturer for a high-flow cat replacement? Their retail prices are great for universal fit and probably wouldn't be that bad if you could get them flanged for the RS/WRX plus you'd have a huge price advantage over RT. Just a thought.
Oh, Imprezafan1 (josh back me up on this)... don't get too caught up in hp numbers. Leaving aside the all dynos are different argument, what makes the RS stand out is the torque... gobs of it (for a 4-cyl) and available in a very broad range. The Cobb street cams make a big beefy torque curve that would make most stock WRX owners jealous. True the ultimate hp is not there, since they work within the stock redline, but they are a blast to drive.
Oh, Imprezafan1 (josh back me up on this)... don't get too caught up in hp numbers. Leaving aside the all dynos are different argument, what makes the RS stand out is the torque... gobs of it (for a 4-cyl) and available in a very broad range. The Cobb street cams make a big beefy torque curve that would make most stock WRX owners jealous. True the ultimate hp is not there, since they work within the stock redline, but they are a blast to drive.
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Imprezfan1
You got it, unless we get enough interest have another batch of our made, then we do not have a stock style replacement anymore. The cat section being used on our coming header/cat combo is a different design since our header does not terminate in the stock location. I still have a Random Tech cat on my car. It was the latest design and so far it has worked very well. The only problem is that I have to take mine of every day and the generic flanges they use annoy me to no end. Not a problem for most people, but proper flanges do cause less fitment problems.
I work for COBB Tuning and do most of the fabrication and have some input on design. Ethan and Trey here have much more knowledge on technical design parameters than I do. They give me specifications to build prototypes to and I make them. For example I made the mock-up for our header, and am continuing to change it to get the results we want based on what Ethan fells would be the next step. Poor prototype, it has been hacked about so many times.
Your first invoice would look like:
SOHC Cams - $499
Core Charge - $400
Shipping - $??
Once you sent in your stock cams in good condition your second invoice would look like this:
Core Charge Refund - -$400
So in the end you pay the $499 + shipping.
BOY – Utah has been great so far. Some little differences like it is hard to get dinner here after 9:00 at night on a weekday (common occurrence since I am at the shop so much ) Maybe one of these days we will find billets that are better and cheaper than stock. Some nice gun drilled ones would hit the spot.
We have looked at almost every cat manufacture our there. I believe we used the Catco or some other very similar brand for our stock replacement cats. We will likely use the same one on our coming header/cat as they fit our space requirements very nice, made good power, and we have not had a failure yet. If there is enough demand and we do continue to carry them they would likely remain the same $215 price as they were. The custom flanges and hangers we use add cost and were not a feature we were willing to shortcut. The Random Tech cats are made of a new style catalyst that I hear flows well and is more durable than their old cats, it is just an expensive brick. We did not see any power difference with it compared to the one we use and ours are holding up just as well.
You have it right with the cams. Another good part about the Street Cams is that they do not cause CEL lights where as the “Spicy” and Race cams do. We will likely be able to solve that with our ECU re-programming.
If you have any questions about the upcoming ECU post them on our forum or do a search there as it has been discussed quite a bit there. Then you can spread the info here.
Cheers,
Josh
COBB Tuning
Edits: they are in italics and I added who I was.
The New Random Tech or the Cobb Tuning High Flow cat? Or did you say that Cobb doesn't make their own.
do you work for Cobb Tuning or do you make and design their products?
Cams are 499 so I get 2 cams plus and additional 400 core char rite? I get that money back when I send in my stock ones?
SOHC Cams - $499
Core Charge - $400
Shipping - $??
Once you sent in your stock cams in good condition your second invoice would look like this:
Core Charge Refund - -$400
So in the end you pay the $499 + shipping.
BOY – Utah has been great so far. Some little differences like it is hard to get dinner here after 9:00 at night on a weekday (common occurrence since I am at the shop so much
) Maybe one of these days we will find billets that are better and cheaper than stock. Some nice gun drilled ones would hit the spot. We have looked at almost every cat manufacture our there. I believe we used the Catco or some other very similar brand for our stock replacement cats. We will likely use the same one on our coming header/cat as they fit our space requirements very nice, made good power, and we have not had a failure yet. If there is enough demand and we do continue to carry them they would likely remain the same $215 price as they were. The custom flanges and hangers we use add cost and were not a feature we were willing to shortcut. The Random Tech cats are made of a new style catalyst that I hear flows well and is more durable than their old cats, it is just an expensive brick. We did not see any power difference with it compared to the one we use and ours are holding up just as well.
You have it right with the cams. Another good part about the Street Cams is that they do not cause CEL lights where as the “Spicy” and Race cams do. We will likely be able to solve that with our ECU re-programming.
If you have any questions about the upcoming ECU post them on our forum or do a search there as it has been discussed quite a bit there. Then you can spread the info here.
Cheers,
Josh
COBB Tuning
Edits: they are in italics and I added who I was.
Last edited by scoobiejosh; Jan 23, 2003 at 11:14 AM.