Why the boost roll back
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Why the boost roll back
OK, before I get hammered I've done searches and I still haven't found what I'm looking for (man that ought to be a song...).
Anyway, I'm curious about the boost drop in the upper RPMs. Is this a done because the turbo is inefficient and the I/C can't keep up, is it an issue of not overspinning the turbo, running out of enough fuel to support that much boost w/ factory setup?!?
I've seen guys say it's an airflow issue (lack of specifically), but if that were true, it should be even worse with a bigger turbo...
Thanks for any info
Derck
Oh yeah, how come I have some stuff in my preference page and click show signature, but nothing ever shows?
Anyway, I'm curious about the boost drop in the upper RPMs. Is this a done because the turbo is inefficient and the I/C can't keep up, is it an issue of not overspinning the turbo, running out of enough fuel to support that much boost w/ factory setup?!?
I've seen guys say it's an airflow issue (lack of specifically), but if that were true, it should be even worse with a bigger turbo...
Thanks for any info
Derck
Oh yeah, how come I have some stuff in my preference page and click show signature, but nothing ever shows?
It's a safety precaution built in by subaru. Design the car very conservative, and worry less about engine damage. Common business practice for any automanufacturer.
This can be fixed with the addition of some sort of aftermarket boost control.
This can be fixed with the addition of some sort of aftermarket boost control.
it tapers for couple of reasoning.........safety is one....but the other is, if u look at the flow map of our tiny turbo, u'll see that it run out of steam, meaning it can't push any more air above the 5500k rpm range. so basically, it's out of it's efficiency range
if u go w/a bigger turbo....it'll be able to push more air, even at the higher rpm range, but then u're fuel system and cooling system can't keep up
if u go w/a bigger turbo....it'll be able to push more air, even at the higher rpm range, but then u're fuel system and cooling system can't keep up
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From: Longing for my ol' white '02 WRX :(
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Its a consideration of the stress put on the engine and turbo. 15psi@4000rpm is not as potentially destructive as 15psi@6000rpm. Engine heat and stress is not just a product of combustion, but the friction of moving metal and air.
As far as "can't pushing any more air", what's that supposed to mean? Turbo efficiency is a matter of air mass. The hotter your turbo gets (from internal friction, ambient heat, etc) the less effective CFMs it puts out because hot air is less dense. The TD04-13Gs puts out a "max" of about 360cfm, and I believe that's a rating well beyond the WRX's redline.
As you get higher RPMs you get more mechanical heat from a myriad of sources. So your calculations for keeping engine stability relative to boost cannot not be performed as though it was for a static environment. Its changing and that mechanical heat needs to be factored in. If you don't keep it balanced in some way, *kablooey*. Since Subaru can't control your driving habits (pushing revs, or not) and can't control the highest octane available to you... the lower the boost.
Well, it makes sense to me anyway
jason
As far as "can't pushing any more air", what's that supposed to mean? Turbo efficiency is a matter of air mass. The hotter your turbo gets (from internal friction, ambient heat, etc) the less effective CFMs it puts out because hot air is less dense. The TD04-13Gs puts out a "max" of about 360cfm, and I believe that's a rating well beyond the WRX's redline.
As you get higher RPMs you get more mechanical heat from a myriad of sources. So your calculations for keeping engine stability relative to boost cannot not be performed as though it was for a static environment. Its changing and that mechanical heat needs to be factored in. If you don't keep it balanced in some way, *kablooey*. Since Subaru can't control your driving habits (pushing revs, or not) and can't control the highest octane available to you... the lower the boost.
Well, it makes sense to me anyway

jason
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So, does anyone know the CFM of the stock turbo? I understand (spelling doesn't turn out right) the compression theory (I'm an Air Force pilot). Also....I uderstand how a compressor works (I have a my minor in mathematic, but beer usually suited me better).
I'm just wondering why the boost tapers off....is this a safety factor??? Also understand the fact the turbo blades go trans-sonic and their efficienciency (sp?) drops way off at that point....is that where the wastegate steps in???
Just a curious mind at work....
Thanks guys
::
I'm just wondering why the boost tapers off....is this a safety factor??? Also understand the fact the turbo blades go trans-sonic and their efficienciency (sp?) drops way off at that point....is that where the wastegate steps in???
Just a curious mind at work....
Thanks guys
::
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Basically, the boost tapers off towards redline to rpevent detonation. The compressor falls out of it's efficiency range, as was mentioned, which raises intake charge temps. Combined with the injectors coming up close to full duty cycle, it's just a little more perilous than Subaru wanted to get. So they reduced boost, nothing breaks, and they still get their 227 peak hp. To be honest though, keeping full boost all the way to redline wouldn't result in much extra power due to the hot air being less dense. The actual number of oxygen molecules in each cylinder wouldn't increase much due to the lower density, and it would also be more likely to knock. This is why compressor efficiency is the single most important factor in making the most possible power in a given turbo engine.
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Thanks Ban,
That's what I was figuring....Teiva, not to sound like a smart a$$, but I definitely do understand the concept of turbos...my jet has 4 huge ones that are turned by an internal combustion chamber, that's why I mentioned the job thing.
Anywho, not going to be persuing keeping the boost in til redline...methinks maybe a new turbo is due for a Christmas present.
Thanks guys
Derck
That's what I was figuring....Teiva, not to sound like a smart a$$, but I definitely do understand the concept of turbos...my jet has 4 huge ones that are turned by an internal combustion chamber, that's why I mentioned the job thing.
Anywho, not going to be persuing keeping the boost in til redline...methinks maybe a new turbo is due for a Christmas present.
Thanks guys
Derck
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Heh, your turbine engines have a big advantage over turbocharged internal combustion- turbines will run on damn near anything, from kerosene to race gas!
Originally posted by derck_mullin
Thanks Ban,
That's what I was figuring....Teiva, not to sound like a smart a$$, but I definitely do understand the concept of turbos...my jet has 4 huge ones that are turned by an internal combustion chamber, that's why I mentioned the job thing.
Anywho, not going to be persuing keeping the boost in til redline...methinks maybe a new turbo is due for a Christmas present.
Thanks guys
Derck
Thanks Ban,
That's what I was figuring....Teiva, not to sound like a smart a$$, but I definitely do understand the concept of turbos...my jet has 4 huge ones that are turned by an internal combustion chamber, that's why I mentioned the job thing.
Anywho, not going to be persuing keeping the boost in til redline...methinks maybe a new turbo is due for a Christmas present.
Thanks guys
Derck
If you took the time to read page 3/design considerations it would have given you a brief glimpse into why things are the way they are.
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Teiva...not sure I follow.
I checked the page and I really do know a thing or two about compressors...
The reason they (compressors in general) typically loose efficiency is because the blades of the compressor enter the transonic region which is bad for several reasons which I won't get into here....
I'm just curious if this is a factory design limitation due to the compressor ineffienciency or something else...
Not tryin to get cute bro...just inquisitive...
Derck
And yeah Bans....10K pounds and hour!!!!!
I checked the page and I really do know a thing or two about compressors...
The reason they (compressors in general) typically loose efficiency is because the blades of the compressor enter the transonic region which is bad for several reasons which I won't get into here....
I'm just curious if this is a factory design limitation due to the compressor ineffienciency or something else...
Not tryin to get cute bro...just inquisitive...
Derck
And yeah Bans....10K pounds and hour!!!!!
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What it really comes down to is this: You've all said parts of it (including myself) and missed the real mark. Not only, like I said before, are over all stresses FAR more significant during higher RPM, but if you are having heat issues and ultimately detonating you will have more detonations per second at higher RPMs. Basic math.
Read (among other things) Corky Bell's book on turbo system kit design. Its a bit old ("...ultramodern Acura Integra engine..."
but the theory is pretty up to date.
jason
Read (among other things) Corky Bell's book on turbo system kit design. Its a bit old ("...ultramodern Acura Integra engine..."
but the theory is pretty up to date.jason
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I've read it several times.
I have yet to come across new information that isn't in that book, except at a very high level of math and physics. FYI for those who want it, the ISBN is 0-8376-0160-6. I got mine off of Amazon.
And the Acura he uses is an NSX... the buildup is pretty sweet. I just want to find out if they are still making Aerodyne turbos.
I have yet to come across new information that isn't in that book, except at a very high level of math and physics. FYI for those who want it, the ISBN is 0-8376-0160-6. I got mine off of Amazon.And the Acura he uses is an NSX... the buildup is pretty sweet. I just want to find out if they are still making Aerodyne turbos.
Last edited by Kevin M; Aug 31, 2003 at 08:13 PM.


