5 Speed is a big Mistake
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,402
From: Bay Area
Car Info: 02 WRX wagon=dead; rollin' in a Craptastic Camry!
For me, it's not so much about having one more gear ratio. It's more about reliability and modern design.
The 5 speed box in my WRX feels great, but the syncros are not up to par. Grinding in first gear from a dead stop is not acceptable. Having to double clutch and rev match when pulling into a parking lot is kind of fun for me, but I would be uncomfortable allowing my S.O. to drive it for this reason, again unacceptable in this class of car.
Stories of broken gears abound on the WRX. The 2.5T will be making at least as much torque as some of the mildly modified WRX's which have busted gears. As much as I like the Legacy turbo, I will not buy one until I am convinced that they syncro issues and gear strength issues have been resolved.
The 5 speed box in my WRX feels great, but the syncros are not up to par. Grinding in first gear from a dead stop is not acceptable. Having to double clutch and rev match when pulling into a parking lot is kind of fun for me, but I would be uncomfortable allowing my S.O. to drive it for this reason, again unacceptable in this class of car.
Stories of broken gears abound on the WRX. The 2.5T will be making at least as much torque as some of the mildly modified WRX's which have busted gears. As much as I like the Legacy turbo, I will not buy one until I am convinced that they syncro issues and gear strength issues have been resolved.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 720
From: The Hunted Forest
Car Info: Mazda Protege '02 (Wishing protege has AWD and a H6 twin turbo)
Isn't the 6 speed alot more than 600 bucks additional? I've looked around for just gear sets and the 6 is like in the 3,500 range
Subaru 6 speed is made by Subaru internally and the problem is, they can't make enough due to the capacity of the factory.
From what i heard, thats why Legacy doesnt have 6 speed right now.
Probably 6spd legacy will come out later once they solve the situation.
If they do S402 or Legacy STi, those will be 6spd for sure I think.
From what i heard, thats why Legacy doesnt have 6 speed right now.
Probably 6spd legacy will come out later once they solve the situation.
If they do S402 or Legacy STi, those will be 6spd for sure I think.
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Originally Posted by harrydog
Waaaay too tall? The WRX engine is turning 3500 rpm at 85 mph in 5th. Why would you want the engine to be working harder than that for high speed cruising?
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Ok....here we go.....
This is out of the March 2004 C&D :
Acura TL 6-speed
Audi A4 3.0 6-speed
BMW 325i 5-speed
Infiniti G35 6-speed
Jaguar Xtype 3.0 5-speed
Lexus IS300 5-speed
Saab 93 Arc 6-speed
Every one of these cars is much more expensive than the Legacy GT. The 5/6-speed is split 3 and 4. Now granted, the newer designs (Acura Audi Infiniti and Saab)are 6-speeds, but the application is key. The GT is hitting a price point, that is why the 5-speed. A six speed would be likely once a higher price/performance car comes out.
To BlingBlingBlue:
The 5-speed is of a different design in the FXT, Baja Turbo, and the GT from the weaker design in the WRX. (And the WRX gets stronger synchros this year.)
And TypeC, the 5-speed is well matched for gas-mileage. Acceleration is not good in any car in it's top gear (used to be called overdrive for it's non-acceleration-but-good-gas-milage qualities). The WRX has turbo lag, a tiny engine with big turbo, and low torque without boost. These are a combination for weak top-gear acceleration, but lower gearing would make it lousy on the highway.
Just my $.02
This is out of the March 2004 C&D :
Acura TL 6-speed
Audi A4 3.0 6-speed
BMW 325i 5-speed
Infiniti G35 6-speed
Jaguar Xtype 3.0 5-speed
Lexus IS300 5-speed
Saab 93 Arc 6-speed
Every one of these cars is much more expensive than the Legacy GT. The 5/6-speed is split 3 and 4. Now granted, the newer designs (Acura Audi Infiniti and Saab)are 6-speeds, but the application is key. The GT is hitting a price point, that is why the 5-speed. A six speed would be likely once a higher price/performance car comes out.
To BlingBlingBlue:
The 5-speed is of a different design in the FXT, Baja Turbo, and the GT from the weaker design in the WRX. (And the WRX gets stronger synchros this year.)
And TypeC, the 5-speed is well matched for gas-mileage. Acceleration is not good in any car in it's top gear (used to be called overdrive for it's non-acceleration-but-good-gas-milage qualities). The WRX has turbo lag, a tiny engine with big turbo, and low torque without boost. These are a combination for weak top-gear acceleration, but lower gearing would make it lousy on the highway.
Just my $.02
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 568
From: busy writing log of best roads in CA.
Car Info: 2002 WRX Sedan
Originally Posted by harrydog
Waaaay too tall? The WRX engine is turning 3500 rpm at 85 mph in 5th. Why would you want the engine to be working harder than that for high speed cruising?
AND BTW: the engine would NOT be working HARDER in 5th. The tall 5th that we have is taking leverage away from the motor and giving it to wind drag, rolling resistance, and weight. Think about what happens when you hop on a multi speed bike and try to pedal with too high of a gear, your legs want to die. If we could bring the final drive down a little bit, it would lessen the actual load on the motor and it would become more lively. I would rather have the motor pull harder at more usable speeds than 85mph +. When I was in the 'hot rod' VW business I was amazed at how many people would think that going to a Bus 4th gear (0.82 vs 0.89 for the Bug) would improve performance. Some peple even coupled this stupid decision with a 3.88:1 vs. the orig 4.12 or 4.37. Really dumb idea on an air-cooled car (especially). You're slowing down the cooling fan AND increasing the load on the motor.
For more info you should read about gearing a turbo car for performance in AG Bell's book "Forced Induction Performance." It clearly explains the problem of the WRX's (even the STi's) turbo lag problem and its wimpy gear ratios. It can all be explained at worked out with percentages from ratio to ratio.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,402
From: Bay Area
Car Info: 02 WRX wagon=dead; rollin' in a Craptastic Camry!
Originally Posted by Derbagley
To BlingBlingBlue:
The 5-speed is of a different design in the FXT, Baja Turbo, and the GT from the weaker design in the WRX. (And the WRX gets stronger synchros this year.)
The 5-speed is of a different design in the FXT, Baja Turbo, and the GT from the weaker design in the WRX. (And the WRX gets stronger synchros this year.)
"At this time, we do not have specific information on features, options,
or pricing for the 2005 Legacy models. We should have this information
later this Spring, as the vehicles are expected to be available at
Subaru dealers in June. "
I will inquire again, but I am not hopeful that SOA will be any more helpful this time around. If you have a real source backing up your claim, I would be very interested. The poor quality of the syncros in my WRX is the only reason I would not consider the Legacy GT.
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I'm not sure of the source on the FXT tranny being stronger. My father bought it a year ago when it came out, and I forget my research.
However, the WRX is getting a revision in the tranny for '05. Subaru of Nashua has it as a bullet point on the new for 2005 items. This makes sense, since why would you publisize that "your new tranny isn't crap like our old tranny"?
Some of this tiny text publicity is the fact that the Leg. GT will have a "heavy-duty" five speed. This term was hidden amongst many blurbs during the debut back in Jan.
However, the WRX is getting a revision in the tranny for '05. Subaru of Nashua has it as a bullet point on the new for 2005 items. This makes sense, since why would you publisize that "your new tranny isn't crap like our old tranny"?
Some of this tiny text publicity is the fact that the Leg. GT will have a "heavy-duty" five speed. This term was hidden amongst many blurbs during the debut back in Jan.
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Oh...here we go.
This is from the legacysti.com website:
Manual Transmissions
While many know Subaru has been using 5MT’s for quite some time, many don’t know the history behind the current unit in use. The overall design of the 5MT dates back to the early to mid 1980’s as the basic design was conceived to be used with the naturally aspirated 1.8L engine of the day producing around half of the power as the current WRX produces. This gearbox has evolved plenty over the 20 or so years of its lifespan for increased strength, reliability, and smoothness. The 5MT design in general is rather reliable given modest power levels and being driven smoothly.
The problems only arose after the WRX started to become widely available, the USDM in particular. While the 5MT is just fine in a very high percentage of instances, problems have arose with that small percentage of owners and drivers who like to slam through gears, do hard launches, and flog these machines just like any 2WD car. It’s not like a 2WD car where traction is going through one or two wheels and then up in smoke, the WRX has 3 traction surfaces (the open front + viscous center and rear differentials transmit power effectively to a minimum of 3 wheels) which places much greater loads on the internal components of the transmission (which few owners that destroy their transmissions understand.) Previous to bringing the car to the USDM, the rate of failure (including high-output STi models with the virtually the same tranny) was MUCH lower, which shows how abusive the American crowd is in general.
The new 5MT units placed in the ’04 Forester XT first, now ’05 Legacy 2.5GT, and WRX turbocharged models are said to have received a strengthened case to reduce case flex which may have contributed a substantial effect to the proverbial ‘straw that broke the camels back’, though that doesn’t place any less blame on those who clearly abused their transmissions. From all evidence so far about the Forester XT and from the models in Japan that have supposedly started receiving this new case revision as early as MY02, it is substantially beefier and harder to break leading evidence of malfunction more directly to abuse.
This is from the legacysti.com website:
Manual Transmissions
While many know Subaru has been using 5MT’s for quite some time, many don’t know the history behind the current unit in use. The overall design of the 5MT dates back to the early to mid 1980’s as the basic design was conceived to be used with the naturally aspirated 1.8L engine of the day producing around half of the power as the current WRX produces. This gearbox has evolved plenty over the 20 or so years of its lifespan for increased strength, reliability, and smoothness. The 5MT design in general is rather reliable given modest power levels and being driven smoothly.
The problems only arose after the WRX started to become widely available, the USDM in particular. While the 5MT is just fine in a very high percentage of instances, problems have arose with that small percentage of owners and drivers who like to slam through gears, do hard launches, and flog these machines just like any 2WD car. It’s not like a 2WD car where traction is going through one or two wheels and then up in smoke, the WRX has 3 traction surfaces (the open front + viscous center and rear differentials transmit power effectively to a minimum of 3 wheels) which places much greater loads on the internal components of the transmission (which few owners that destroy their transmissions understand.) Previous to bringing the car to the USDM, the rate of failure (including high-output STi models with the virtually the same tranny) was MUCH lower, which shows how abusive the American crowd is in general.
The new 5MT units placed in the ’04 Forester XT first, now ’05 Legacy 2.5GT, and WRX turbocharged models are said to have received a strengthened case to reduce case flex which may have contributed a substantial effect to the proverbial ‘straw that broke the camels back’, though that doesn’t place any less blame on those who clearly abused their transmissions. From all evidence so far about the Forester XT and from the models in Japan that have supposedly started receiving this new case revision as early as MY02, it is substantially beefier and harder to break leading evidence of malfunction more directly to abuse.
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Bay Area
By the way, where in the Bay Area are you?
I'm driving there with my wife and brother to visit family this summer. Hopefully it will be in a Legacy GT (trying to dissuade him from the G35). We have relatives in Oakland and Concord.
I love that area. Maybe you should get the Forester XT. That hill-hold would be great on the San Francisco hills
I'm driving there with my wife and brother to visit family this summer. Hopefully it will be in a Legacy GT (trying to dissuade him from the G35). We have relatives in Oakland and Concord.
I love that area. Maybe you should get the Forester XT. That hill-hold would be great on the San Francisco hills
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,402
From: Bay Area
Car Info: 02 WRX wagon=dead; rollin' in a Craptastic Camry!
Originally Posted by Derbagley
... problems have arose with that small percentage of owners and drivers who like to slam through gears, do hard launches, and flog these machines just like any 2WD car. It’s not like a 2WD car where traction is going through one or two wheels and then up in smoke, the WRX has 3 traction surfaces (the open front + viscous center and rear differentials transmit power effectively to a minimum of 3 wheels) which places much greater loads on the internal components of the transmission (which few owners that destroy their transmissions understand.) Previous to bringing the car to the USDM, the rate of failure (including high-output STi models with the virtually the same tranny) was MUCH lower, which shows how abusive the American crowd is in general.
Bottom line: My car grinds first gear from a dead stop, and has done so randomly (usually when hot) since ~20K miles. I will not buy another Subaru until I am convinced that this design defect has been fixed.
BTW, I live in San Jose. Thanks for the compliment, it seems there are a lot of California bashers out there. For all the beauracratic problems we suffer, the weather and natural land features make it all worth it.
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