Originally Posted by codename47

Suing the credit bureaus

I am a litigious, angry consumer. I'll sue a creditor, collector, or credit bureau at the drop of a hat. Why? Well, it is the only thing they understand, since these are for profit businesses. Threaten their profits, and they sit up with rapt attention. Yell, scream, cry, kick, moan, groan, etc... and they don't care. The credit bureaus in particular ARE NOT YOUR FRIEND. They don't make any money off of you directly, YOU ARE NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. The credit bureaus make money from selling reports and information to creditors and collectors. Only as of late have the bureaus embraced this concept of selling reports and credit monitoring products to consumers while throwing out the spectre of "identity theft". Before that, believe it or not, the big 3 ran collection agencies and were really in a consumer hostile mode.

One universal concept is that credit bureaus DO NOT FOLLOW THE LAW. They push the envelope as far as they can go, get a 1M fine or so every year from the FTC, chalk it up as a business expense, and figure out what to do with the other 199M they earned that year. If you can game the system and delete accurate info (and you absolutely can) you'll hear wails and moans about how it is fraud, and how future creditors could get burned, etc... Credit reports are defacto inaccurate by and large. I've seen numbers suggesting upwards of 70-80% contain inaccuracies. Why? Because contrary to popular belief the credit bureaus don't actually CHECK the information they are given, they just report whatever the creditor/collector puts in the E-oscar terminal. Anyone can report anything at any time, and you are generally powerless to do anything about it. The CRA's can rely on the representations of the data furnishers. The way the law is written, it is on YOU to do something about any inaccuracies.

As far as doing investigations, as Johnson V MBNA showed, the credit bureaus and data furnishers just parrot information back and forth. "You got a Johnson owing a debt? Yup, sure do. Ok, thanks, VERIFIED" That is about it. The data furnishers don't get information on your dispute, it is reduced to a 2 digit code (01 = not mine, 02 = never late, etc...) and sent off. Don't ever think for a minute that a "not mine" can't get confused and put in as a "never late" or something stupid like that. The data furnisher checks their records or is supposed to and then they update accordingly. For example, on a "not mine" dispute all that is checked is your name, SSN, DOB, and address. Match 2 out of 4 and it is verified. The deck is stacked against you.

If YOU are on the recieving end of a raw deal, though (ID theft, mistaken identity, just plain wrong info being reported), you'll often find that you have no recourse. Go ahead, complain to the worthless BBB. They are a private, for profit entity as well with no regulatory power to fine or do anything. Write your congressman: they simply don't care. Write the FTC: they won't get involved unless there is a "volume of complaints" which means as your civic duty, you SHOULD do this, but don't expect any personal attention, unless you have an egrigeous case. Write your state AG. They are like the FTC, and should be involved, but don't expect much help.

Now, what is a consumer to do? Just sit back and take it and hope superman comes to your aid? I don't think so.

There is one last recourse that for whatever reason consumers as a whole just don't do. SUE THEM!!! This is actually my first recourse. I approach EVERY call, letter, or whatever as me simply gathering evidence in preparation for a lawsuit. I record all calls ( I live in a 1 party state, as most states are, and even if I didn't, the big 3 give 2 party notification with the start of each call. Record everything no matter where you live when dealing with them, and don't tell anyone you are recording). I send my letters certified with return reciept, so I can have proof when they come with the "we never got it" excuse. They get one shot. If you screw up, I am going to be best of friends with your corporate counsel. I am on a mission to sue them, unless they make me happy. The CRA's are NOT your friends, they are NOT on your side, they do NOT have your interests at heart.

Suing is depicted as something to be done only in "extreme" cases, like nuclear war. Truth be told, consumers get sued every day by the hundreds by collectors, and businesses sue other businesses all the time as well. Suing has been depicted as "evil", mean spirited, or an opportunistic person looking for a jackpot judgment. In truth, you CAN absolutely get a monster judgment, depending on if you have actual damages, and rightly so. If you have some stupid collector or business reporting inaccurate info, or the CRA's fail to follow the established procedures and it costs you a house, that collector or CRA owes you a house, pure and simple. For smaller transgressions, 1k per violation is the legal max for statutory damages. If you can show actual damages, such as getting declined, then the damage o meter goes up from there. The point isn't to get paid, though, but to clear up your report. All I can say is nothing gets someone's attention like a summons.

One silly notion is that suing is hard. Suing isn't hard. Lawyers do it all the time, so it can't be THAT difficult. Head to the Western district of Texas Federal court website, and download the pro-se guide if you don't have one. The hardest lawsuit is your first one. The pro se guide has examples, definitions, etc... It is so easy. Describe yourself, describe your problem, how you were harmed, what laws were violated, describe what damages you have, if no actual damages go for statutory. Sign it, get a clerk to stamp it, send it off certified, and wait for your call the next day.

You will probably have to go pro-se, because it is harder to find a GOOD consumer lawyer to take your case on contingency than it is to find an honest politician. Lawyers want money. Consumer cases, generally don't have a lot of money, unless you have the magic case (good 700+ credit, collector or someone plasters your report, you dispute to no avail PROPERLY, and it costs you a house or something, and that gives you an ulcer, AND your wife divorces you) outside of that, you are probably better off going at it alone. People attach all sorts of mythical abilities to lawyers, but honestly, most have no clue about consmer statutes and a brief read through of the law and significant cases will make you more knowledgeable than 99% of the lawyers in the world, no joke. I've gone head to head with the best law firm in town, TWICE, and these guys are absolutely clueless. They don't know the first thing about consumer laws, and much of it was spent with them telling me why I should accept a pittance, with me telling them they better come hard with a settlement that makes me think about not continuing or not at all.

Next fallacy: suing is expensive. It isn't expensive. It costs more to have bad credit than it does to sue a few times. Federal court is now $350. Get an "Informa paupis" form to hopefully file for free. I've done it every time I have sued, and it was denied every time. I knew I had no chance to get it approved, but I did it anyway. Why? To get the suit filed. Once it is filed and served, the defendant will have 20 or 30 days (I can't remember which) to answer it. In that time, they'll do their best to convince you how you have no case, how lucky you are that they are letting you dismiss it with prejudice, and how they are going to sock you for atty's fees. If they come to their senses and make me a reasonable offer, which includes fixing my report and some cash, then I may be able to make out without paying the fee. Worst case, I add a few weeks to a generally long process, and I pay the fee in the end, no big deal.

I think the "we will sock you with atty's fees" is like the standard line lawyers have to memorize before taking the Bar or something. With just about every consumer statute, the ONLY time you can be hit with atty's fees is if you are suing in bad faith or for harassment. Prove one violation or one pseudo violation or heck, even if you are mistaken with your interpretation of the law, you have NOTHING to worry about. Furthermore, if you can prove ONE violation, all court costs, legal fees, and expenses are billable to the defendant. Suing in actuality is free.The lawyer just wants to get it dismissed, so they don't have to do any real work. Real work is expensive, and it costs their clients money. YOUR GOAL IS TO COST THEIR CLIENT MONEY.

The next step is discovery. Discovery is were you kinda ask them relevant questions about the case and they ask back. BURY THEM IN PAPERWORK. Ask for any and everything, the agents names and addresses that fielded your calls, who worked on your case, what FCRA training they went through, EVERYTHING. Start working on your motion to compel while you are waiting for them to send their blanket objections. Make it expensive to deal with you. Don't give them anything as far as free discovery or tell them about your case. After the first call, unless they are bringing a sizeable settlement, tell them not to call and to send everything via certified mail. The more money you cost them, the more likely they are to capitulate.

The big 3 talk tough and put up an initial fight, but generally capitulate easily. Why? They don't want bad caselaw out there, they don't want regulatory attention (the FTC DOES track Federal lawsuits), and they don't want to risk any Johnson V MBNA expenses (80k Judgment, plus atty's fees for both sides)

Oh, yeah make sure to sue in Fedreal. Small claims court is a joke. The judges are idiots, the clerks are idiots, they probably have never heard of the Fair credit reporting act, the CRA's will probably just remand the case to Federal anyway, and small claims courts generally lack the power to grant injunctive relief.

Common ways CRA's violate the law include:

not allowing people to dispute inquiries. This is a clear cut violation. When you get your standard "inquiries are a matter of record..." letter, respond with "so are lawsuits, here's a summons..." It is a stone cold, hands down, clear cut, violation. The FCRA says you can dispute ANY INFORMATION in your credit file. If a hard inq should really be a soft inq or it wasn't authorized, you can dispute it. Think of it this way, if you can dispute silly stuff like phone numbers or addresses that generally have ZERO impact on your FICO and marginally at best as far as getting approved, you should be able to dispute inq's. Bottom line: it is the law and your right to dispute ANYTHING in your file. If anyone gives you any static, sue them.

Not sending REAL responses to procedures requests. At anytime you can request the procedures used in your dispute. To ME that sounds like a detailed account of when the dispute was sent, what was transmitted, who responsed and how, when they responded, etc...The CRA's say it is a standard form letter saying they investigate your disptue and publish the results. Well, here is my standard form letter: Plaintiff: Codename_47, Defendent: Dumb credit bureau...

Not doing thing in the required time frames. This is an easy one. CRA's are supposed to transmit info within 5 business days to the data furnishers. The often don't. My response: "stop right there, delete it now" If they balk, sue them.

I had a certain regional CRA try this one with me: "We need a copy of your drivers license and SSN card to send you your dispute results" Please. For a CONSUMER DISCLOSURE, yes they can require proper ID. Dispute results are not consumer disclosures. Consumer disclosures are not dispute results. A consumer disclosure is when you are denied credit or purchase a free report. Dispute results are dispute resutlts, period.

Reinsertion. This is where you dispute something, the creditor re-certifies that it is indeed accurate, and it comes back. The CRA's are supposed to send you a letter stating that it has been reinserted. Do you think they ever do? Of course not, so why don't you send them a little letter instead.

Not reporting credit limits!!!! This one pisses me off. The FCRA says the CRA's must strive for the "maximum possible accuracy", but they WILLFULLY do not report credit limits. I am going to sue a credit bureau over this here shortly. I disputed the credit limit of one card, which is 26k, not too shabby of a limit, I think, much better than 17k that they were reporting. They changed it for a month, then it changed back. I have them for reporting inaccurate info, reinsertion with no letter, and not striving for maximum possible accuracy. Sure, it says high balance or credit limit, but lets assume for a minute that NOBODY reported credit limits. It is a huge part of your score, second only to payment history, and if it is so important, why do people get the option to report it or not. They don't, in my book.

My personal favorite is ID theft. I wish someone would. I have NO fear of someone stealing my identity. I would dispute ONE TIME, send in the appropriate paperwork, and in 31 days, if that stuff isn't off my report, EVERYONE is getting a summons.

Suing works. It costs people money, which they hate. It gets people's attention. I would never, ever spend hours upon hours on the phone trying to get someone from india to investigate my dispute. I'd bang out a 1 page letter in word, send it certified ONE time, follow up with a letter demanding deletion after day 31, and the third thing would be a summons. The only reason I would ever be on the phone is to get the name of the corporate counsel or to get a physical address if I can't quickly find one to send my paperwork. Put your number at the bottom, and they WILL call YOU within 24 hours. The credit bureaus get sued all the time. They have a special department at each that handles angry consumers that sue called "special handeling" or whatever the term de jour is. I think the best thing you can have to preserve your score is a solid understanding of the law, and the willingness to defend your rights.

Originally Posted by hokusai

I also noticed that everytime I call SBC tech support and get someone from India, his name is usually STEVE or BOB.

Originally Posted by hokusai

I also noticed that everytime I call SBC tech support and get someone from India, his name is usually STEVE or BOB.

Originally Posted by specb

Here is what exactly happens in India when your call goes there. The guy there is asked to read a few lines in the sheet and see if he can satisfy you. In old days when i had set up a call center here in Cleveland OH there were supervisors available 24/7 to make a decision. In india there are no supervisors and they don't know what to do after a certain limit.

So don't blame on indians but blame our own companies here. I am an indian and here is what i do. When i call a callcenter and i get an indian accent (pretty easy to point out) i politely say good bye and call the phone again till i reach a person in usa. Normally after a few tries i get to someone here. And at times they are also lost as they are working from their homes and have no supervisor to answer the extra questions.

This is a new world we are living in where these things are going to happen. I am i the tech area and everyday i have to deal with this.

So don't make racial remarks please.

On the lighter side once in OH i was asked by a gentleman why are you indians talking the jobs away from us. He was a high profile client and i did not want to **** him off so i did not say a thing. He kept on making senseless remarks s eventually at dinner i told him that--> Americans drove indians away from America now it is our turn. History repeats itself. it was a stupidest remark frm my side but that was the only thing i could remember to say to defulse the tension.

Originally Posted by OneManArmy

there is nothing wrong with "racial" remarks. Now "racist" remarks on the other hand are a different story and I made no such remarks and from what I read no one else did either.

Bottom line is that it's true. No it's not their fault but they are the ones I'm dealing with not bob thomas on the 51st floor that makes 1.5 mil a year to send the jobs over there. I hate the entire situation and it's only a matter of time before it bites us in the ***. It's simple economics. When you outsource at these levels are strenthen their economy and weaken ours. The more jobs you remove from the U.S. work for the more people are unemployed and forced to collect unemployment and welfare...the less money people have to spend. Eventually that money that they would be making and spending will start to effect these greedy capitalist bastards...well their companies anyways. The greedy bastards will already be retired with about $400mil in the bank. No money made equals no money spent. No money spent means no money made for the big companies. It's rediculous what they are allowed to get away with.

so for the racial comments. I didn't make any comments that weren't true. If they hurt your feelings....oh well. **** I'm german to the bone. I hear the **** crap but the truth of the matter is that my blood line excaped germany and my grandfather died a highly decorated war hero on the side of the U.S. in world war two...but does that mean that the germans or german ****'s didn't kill a butt load of jews? truth is truth.